Thanks for the very helpful replies – now I understand and Jesse I’ll gratefully take you up on your offer of advice on ‘what to add’ for IFR if I go down that route.
To the debate about ‘who flies a Robin (or similar) IFR’ – my twopence worth is that like most of my IR(R) buddies I expect to fly mainly VFR but use the IFR equipment to
(a) get me above the cloud at Shoreham so I can go somewhere sunny – and get me back down through it on the way home.
(b)not have-a-cow when there’s the inevitable cloud somewhere in the 300 mile route from VMC strip A to VMC strip B – you can cover that in the Robin in just a couple of hours and 50litres jet A1 -but one decent band of cloud can ruin your day.
I’m probably not going to become a ‘proper’ IR pilot like Peter who flies high and fast in airways / for the moment at least I still like watching the ground pass by from below 8000ft. Each to their own.
get me above the cloud at Shoreham so I can go somewhere sunny – and get me back down through it on the way home.
FWIW I don’t doubt this at all. My early VFR trips (2004-Crete 2005-Santorini) were done VFR (well, UK kind of VFR 
) and VMC on top. So a decent perf plane which is VFR-only is pretty usable. You just need to know how to hack the airspace issues in some places, and how to do dodgy VFR safely (coastal airports are a big help 
).
My earlier Q was purely regarding the market for a €250k plane which is VFR only. Is a €250k C172 really VFR-only? No way is a C172 a VFR plane. To make it VFR only you would have to deliberately cripple it, with cheap avionics. And if it is, sticking a used GNS430 in there, popping the AFMS in the POH, and you are fully Eurocontrol IFR compliant! And come to think of it, same for a “VFR” Robin. You just need to find an IFR GPS which doesn’t involve an EASA Major Mod.
Which makes me think… any box which is on the Type Cert (for the applicable airframe S/N range, blah blah) can be screwed straight in, with just a logbook entry. So IF Robin make the same plane but charge €X for it with VFR avionics and €Y with IFR avionics, and the price difference is so massive, what exactly are you getting for that price difference which you actually need for Eurocontrol IFR? Maybe you are getting ADF and DME and an IFR GPS. But there must be hundreds of Cirruses in Europe without ADF or DME and none of them has ever been busted for the obviously illegal flying. Even allowing for a large % doing VFR burger runs (not my claim – see posts above) I would expect to see prosecutions, but there are none. Not even in Germany…… And how much would it take to fit an IFR GPS to the VFR Robin?
BTW here is an article of mine on the AFMS issue. N-reg, but same thing, and very relevant to Shoreham
Peter who flies high and fast in airways
High and slow, would be more accurate for a TB20 at FL210
“High and slow” hehe :)
Re minimal IFR upgrade – the basic price includes
Compass
Turn coordinator
DI (Directional Gyro)
AI (Attitude Gyro vacuum)
Stopwatch with OAT
To this for minimal IFR I’ve calculated:
-Heated pitot
-Second altimeter
-Alternate static
-Alternate avionic master
-VOR2 – GNC255A + VOR indicator
-DME
-Mode S Transponder
Which comes to €23k+VAT with installation
A GTN750, installed adds €18k+VAT (Not worth saving €6k to get the GTN650)
Once you start adding G500s and associated interfaces it quickly climbs into scary territory – so looking at the list above – is there anything that is obviously not needed? DME is pretty pricey at over €8k installed -does that really do anything the GTN750 doesn’t?
Peter wrote:
whose only means of compliance – for GA – is an IFR GPS
I believe a GNS80 is also ok for B-RNAV.
I believe a GNS80 is also ok for B-RNAV
Only with an antenna filter.
I will ask David to set up a Top Anorak poll
Re minimal IFR upgrade – the basic price includes
Compass
Turn coordinator
DI (Directional Gyro)
AI (Attitude Gyro vacuum)
Stopwatch with OAT
You mean somebody is selling a 250k plane without any gyros? That will kill you as soon as you enter cloud. And if you need to buy the IFR version to get a Mode S transponder that is just cynicism taken to the extreme.
If the IFR version has a G500 that would help explain the price. A G500 is hugely expensive. Plus it needs a “W” GPS. I was quoted €48k+VAT by Socata France to install that in my TB20, and that was with 1 × GNS430W i.e. the cheapest possible way. I have seen lower quotes from UK shops but they had loads of caveats about “undiscovered worms” which meant the price would go up. But you don’t need a G500 – it’s just indulgence.
To make it VFR only you would have to deliberately cripple it, with cheap avionics.
In Germany, for example, not only do you have to have the IFR avionics, but the plane has to have IFR certification. The avionics annual inspection for VFR and IFR airplanes is different.
Flyer59 wrote:
In Germany, for example, not only do you have to have the IFR avionics, but the plane has to have IFR certification. The avionics annual inspection for VFR and IFR airplanes is different.
I have been looking at this, just to satisfy my curiosity essentially, and “in case” . In Norway there is no such thing as IFR Certification for GA. The only certification is for using special IFR procedures for scheduled passenger transport. The CAA even had to issue an AIC about this, because of the common misconception among GA pilots that an aircraft needs to be “IFR Certified”.
You only need the instruments specified (heated pitot, gyro etc), that’s it (radio and mode-s is a requirement VFR also). Above 9.5k the airspace requires BRNAV, which can be done by GPS and/or VOR/NDB, and this avionics have to be certified because it’s in the BRNAV requirement. There is also a requirement for redundancy, but this redundancy can be satisfied by the radar coverage. Basically you don’t need any certified avionics to fly IFR below 10k, except that duck that tells you where you are. But then you need to land. The approaches here are all kinds of things. Most of them have RNAV, lots have GLS SCAT-1 (ILS by GPS kind of thing), some have ILS/VOR, some even just NDB. In practice it will be difficult to get around without GPS and VOR/ILS, but for basic EIR there is no requirement for any avionics at all.
The massive Robin price difference remains a mystery, however, since they are obviously not concerned with the ongoing costs to the pilot…
I did all my training in Robin aircraft, and own a share in one.
94% of all my hours are in Robin aircraft, and I absolutely love them, but it would not be my first choice if I was intending on doing anything other than occasional flight in light IMC.
€350k+ for a new fully IFR capable DR401 is a shed load of money, and unless you really, really want a Robin, and really really want a brand new aircraft, that €350k would pay for a very nice used IFR tourer with lots and lots of change left over to spend on actually flying it.
But wouldn’t the same hold true for any new vs. used plane? I mean, €250k would pay for a very nice used VFR tourer with lots of change … :-)
