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CAMO and maintenance fees - Socata MS 892 (EASA SEP)

Gentlemen,

I´m still a new prospect first time aircraft owner of a light SEP (Socata Rallye MS 890 series).

In preparation, I´m gathering information about the road ahead.

Below is a quotation, and some details, that I´ve received from a local maintenance shop for a Socata MS 892. It´s down in Cascais, Portugal. I want to keep the option of utilizing the aircraft for Flight Instruction open (would be myself primarily), but with an ATO.

Feel free to praise it or hammer it down. Thoughts – I´m all ears. Thank you.

Our maintenance division includes 3x Part 145, 1x Part M and 1x Part 21 EASA approvals in the different companies that are integrated in that area.
We started operations in 1991 and we currently hold approvals to work on 40 different types of piston and turboprop aircraft from 17 different OEM’s.

We have extensive experience on the requested type. Our flight school operated several and we have served private customers as well.

1. CAMO
We charge €2.500 to prepare the maintenance program and include it on our system
From then on we charge €200/month for all airworthiness control

2. Maintenance
We have base and line maintenance in Cascais. Line maintenance in Portimão, Ponte de Sor and Bragança.

Standard maintenance fees are currently:

50H 360,00 €
100H 825,00 €
200H 1 100,00 €
500H 1 650,00 €
1000H 2 750,00 €
2000H 5 500,00 €
100H/Annual** 1 100,00 €
200H/Annual 1 415,00 €
These include oil and man hours. Can be updated next year.
Man hour is €75,00
Any anomaly we provide a budget prior to repair.
Any materials are invoiced separately.

Last Edited by Yeager at 16 Dec 20:41
Socata Rallye MS.893E
Portugal

If I understand it correctly, you have not yet bought the plane but are first checking out costs for owning it?

Are you planning to use it only for private flying? In that case you could do most maintenance as owner/operator and keep the maintenance program at yourself without paying for it. There are other threads about that. But in that case flight instruction would be allowed only in flight clubs, not by commercial schools.
We hit that limitation as my son was 15 years last winter and started the flight school with our ralley club. There is a nice commercial school 15 km away, from where we bought the theory but have to do the flying through a club at over 50 km away.

Those prices look awful to me. Annual seems to be alright but I bet if you use your own maintenance program, they will at least double that price. Like one mechanic once mentioned, the commercial camos will take the same money one way or another. Go ahead and try to ask around for a free lance mechanic who has the ARC priviledge. May be hard to find but worth of trying.
Just to copy a (probably ready made) maintenance program for your plane for 2500 – it cannot be an honest business! A couple of hours work, I would say, as I’m using my own maint.program and know that it is not a space rocket list. But the hourly cost 75 is not bad (if including taxes). Here it tends to be 70-100 for free lance and 120-140 at commercial maintenance.

50 h work you can do yourself and save that 360. I cannot understand those 200 or 500 etc fees. Ralley needs only 50 (mostly oil change) and 100 (=annual) repeated. No 500 or 1000 etc. Are they selling a B747 program to your ralley or what? And 200/month for “aw control”. Requires half an hour a couple of times each year to check if new AD has popped up and if yes, adding it to the program. Usually nothing comes up. Well, my plane is sure smaller but I estimate about 3500 a year as fixed costs including insurance, annual, all maintenance, radio licence, hangar (550, airfield is free in EFFO) and gas+oil as variable costs.
But then – if you want to keep the possibility of commercial flight school use, you may not have other choices around. Still I cannot see that as a honest business! One interesting point is that if they are creating the maintenance program, they may add there a bunch of needless expensive stuff which you have to pay for. One rule is that anything that is mentioned in the program must be followed. If they add there “oil change 50h/3 months” then the oil must be changes even if you fly only one hour in 3 months. I have seen some such needless things being added to the programs of small planes, requirements which are needed for bigger ones but not for these. So be careful.

But surely other guys here can give more data about those countries. I know only about Finland..
hannu

EFFO EFHV, Finland

hanski wrote:

hanski16-Dec-22 20:5902
If I understand it correctly, you have not yet bought the plane but are first checking out costs for owning it?

Are you planning to use it only for private flying? In that case you could do most maintenance as owner/operator and keep the maintenance program at yourself without paying for it. There are other threads about that. But in that case flight instruction would be allowed only in flight clubs, not by commercial schools.
We hit that limitation as my son was 15 years last winter and started the flight school with our ralley club. There is a nice commercial school 15 km away, from where we bought the theory but have to do the flying through a club at over 50 km away.

Those prices look awful to me. Annual seems to be alright but I bet if you use your own maintenance program, they will at least double that price. Like one mechanic once mentioned, the commercial camos will take the same money one way or another. Go ahead and try to ask around for a free lance mechanic who has the ARC priviledge. May be hard to find but worth of trying.
Just to copy a (probably ready made) maintenance program for your plane for 2500 – it cannot be an honest business! A couple of hours work, I would say, as I’m using my own maint.program and know that it is not a space rocket list. But the hourly cost 75 is not bad (if including taxes). Here it tends to be 70-100 for free lance and 120-140 at commercial maintenance.

50 h work you can do yourself and save that 360. I cannot understand those 200 or 500 etc fees. Ralley needs only 50 (mostly oil change) and 100 (=annual) repeated. No 500 or 1000 etc. Are they selling a B747 program to your ralley or what? And 200/month for “aw control”. Requires half an hour a couple of times each year to check if new AD has popped up and if yes, adding it to the program. Usually nothing comes up. Well, my plane is sure smaller but I estimate about 3500 a year as fixed costs including insurance, annual, all maintenance, radio licence, hangar (550, airfield is free in EFFO) and gas+oil as variable costs.
But then – if you want to keep the possibility of commercial flight school use, you may not have other choices around. Still I cannot see that as a honest business! One interesting point is that if they are creating the maintenance program, they may add there a bunch of needless expensive stuff which you have to pay for. One rule is that anything that is mentioned in the program must be followed. If they add there “oil change 50h/3 months” then the oil must be changes even if you fly only one hour in 3 months. I have seen some such needless things being added to the programs of small planes, requirements which are needed for bigger ones but not for these. So be careful.

But surely other guys here can give more data about those countries. I know only about Finland..
hannu

Great inputs, tack so mycka. I´m gathering opinions and experiences to create a starting point of how to approach this. So, your input is valuable. Thank you.
Yes, the 2500 Euro “joining fee” seems excessive – especially, I would think, considering the aircraft I´m looking at/for is already under CAMO (but this particular quotation is not aware of the prior status (of being under CAMO already), but I don´t know if this changes anything..

Socata Rallye MS.893E
Portugal

First, you can make make space travel science of your aircraft ownership costs, if you want.
Second, never let a maintenance shop pull you into no. 1.
Third, do what you believe necessary now, not in some distant future.
Forth, flying private you don’t need CAMO (any more, unless commercial).
Fifth, get to know your plane includes taking a screwdriver and learn mechanic.
Sixth, the list of maintenance fees seems of the ordinary kind.
Many shops now do that and I appreciate the mixed calculation.
Sometimes you overpay, sometimes you benefit from it.
Seventh, forget the hourly rate in any negotation and btw, pc is person hour ;-).
What counts in aircraft ownership is ‘total cost to aim’ only, negotiate on that.
Cheapo person hours often convert to many hours, expensive person hours usually go with fairness.
Where expensive person hours meet not so great fairness, run away.

Last one, aircraft ownership costs have many facets, try to get your hands on a real spreadsheet for total cost of ownership in your region. Quite some do these listings and track every penny spent, which will give you an idea what all to have on your mind radar.

Last Edited by MichaLSA at 17 Dec 08:39
Germany

MichaLSA wrote:

MichaLSA17-Dec-22 08:3904
First, you can make make space travel science of your aircraft ownership costs, if you want.
Second, never let a maintenance shop pull you into no. 1.
Third, do what you believe necessary now, not in some distant future.
Forth, flying private you don’t need CAMO (any more, unless commercial).
Fifth, get to know your plane includes taking a screwdriver and learn mechanic.
Sixth, the list of maintenance fees seems of the ordinary kind.
Many shops now do that and I appreciate the mixed calculation.
Sometimes you overpay, sometimes you benefit from it.
Seventh, forget the hourly rate in any negotation and btw, pc is person hour ;-).
What counts in aircraft ownership is ‘total cost to aim’ only, negotiate on that.
Cheapo person hours often convert to many hours, expensive person hours usually go with fairness.
Where expensive person hours meet not so great fairness, run away.

Last one, aircraft ownership costs have many facets, try to get your hands on a real spreadsheet for total cost of ownership in your region. Quite some do these listings and track every penny spent, which will give you an idea what all to have on your mind radar.

@MichaLSA

Thanks for putting forward your perspectives.

My primary objective with this particular thread/post was to gain an insight and opinion from the community on the MRO´s general quotation on providing CAMO on subject aircraft type, and location (which is why I included this in the post).

As a general overall I don´t thrive to make my ownership as cheap as possible, that´s not an objective. I find it important to believe in the CAMO – and start out from a fair proposed cost point. It´s nearly impossible to know anything about the actual product until I´ve tried it out – or somebody shares experience.

Convenience comes at a price, and that´s something I´m willing to spend cash on. As much as I fancy mechanics, and don´t mind being involved, to a certain degree – I much prefer the flying part. I also am not keen on searching the internet for parts, looking for the best deals – I still prefer spending my time flying.

As mentioned, I want keep the opportunity of using the airplane for Flight Instruction, under an ATO, open. From what I understand – this requires CAMO.

I´ve already decided that this airplane ownership will come a high money cost – but equally decided, already now, that I´m not going the be overly concerned about that part – but focus on the (costly) enjoyment and freedom that it comes with. I´m looking at the ownership as a privilege to have.

I´ve noted your point on getting my hands on a real spreadsheet for ownership in my region – that´s something I´ll try and get.

I really appreciate your time and effort in posting – thank you.

Socata Rallye MS.893E
Portugal

For in ATO training you need a CAO/CAMO, unless you offer prospective students a temporary % share of your aircraft for sale. Owners need no CAMO/CAO when using their airplane in an ATO.

In your first year you’d spend around 5k just on the AMP and CAMO… without anything actually being worked on on your plane, that’s nuts and too steep in relation to a rather inexpensive airframe (you could get a G5 or NAV COMM fitted instead). I’d offer the shop the following: You pay them the hourly rate and actual cost it takes them to create the AMP (it takes me a couple hours, they should be faster), and then will maintain the aircraft with them, in turn they include the CAMO as long as you stick with them at no extra cost.

Otherwise, try one of the many CAO/CAMO offers available to get a reasonable price (500-1000€ per year) and find an independent Part 66 mechanic.

Right now business is ample it seems and good shops really make you feel it, but the tide always turns…

Last Edited by Snoopy at 17 Dec 21:48
always learning
LO__, Austria

@Snoopy

Awesome input, thank you.

Snoopy wrote:

For in ATO training you need a CAO/CAMO, unless you offer prospective students a temporary % share of your aircraft for sale. Owners need no CAMO/CAO when using their airplane in an ATO.

1. So, do I understand correctly, that to use my airplane for flight training with an ATO – the CAMO has to be with the ATO and not with myself (owner)? or can it be either, and if so, what would be the recommended choice, and why?

Snoopy wrote:

In your first year you’d spend around 5k just on the AMP and CAMO… without anything actually being worked on on your plane, that’s nuts and too steep in relation to a rather inexpensive airframe (you could get a G5 or NAV COMM fitted instead).

2. Again, I´m green as sh@t. Could I eg. maintain/keep CAMO where the current owner has it, and have the actual maintenance done at a local MRO/Shop/Mechanic, or will that CAMO (current owners CAMO) potentially have “issues/concerns” with that?

Snoopy wrote:

I’d offer the shop the following: You pay them the hourly rate and actual cost it takes them to create the AMP (it takes me a couple hours, they should be faster), and then will maintain the aircraft with them, in turn they include the CAMO as long as you stick with them at no extra cost.

3. I get the idea of that approach, I will most certainly approach it that way.
So, in other words, I´d be looking at skipping the quoted 2500euro (“sign up” CAMO fee) and the monthly CAMO at 200euro/mth., provided that I commit to maintain my aircraft with the local MRO/shop? Is that how I should understand that?

Snoopy wrote:

Otherwise, try one of the many CAO/CAMO offers available to get a reasonable price (500-1000€ per year) and find an independent Part 66 mechanic.

4. That “reasonable price” your referring to, would that include CAMO throughout the year (12 months), or just a “one off”.
Please feel free to recommend any CAMO with a good reputation for the subject aircraft type (Socata MS 892/MS 893). I want hold you accountable! ;-)

Thank you once again.

Last Edited by Yeager at 18 Dec 08:38
Socata Rallye MS.893E
Portugal

Snoopy wrote:

For in ATO training you need a CAO/CAMO, unless you offer prospective students a temporary % share of your aircraft for sale. Owners need no CAMO/CAO when using their airplane in an ATO.

The fact that an aircraft is used by a training organisation does not mean that you need a CAO/CAMO. You do if the training organisation is commercial, otherwise you do not. E.g. an ATO operated by a non-profit club does not need CAO/CAMO.

ML.A.201(e)
For aircraft operated by commercial Approved Training Organisations (‘ATO’) and commercial Declared Training Organisations (‘DTO’) […] or not operated in accordance with […] (Part-NCO) […], the operator shall:
(1) be approved as a CAMO or as a CAO for the management of the continuing airworthiness of its aircraft in accordance with Annex Vc (Part-CAMO), Subpart G of Annex I (Part-M) or Annex Vd (Part-CAO), or contract such an organisation using the contract set out in Appendix I to this Annex

The Guidance Material gives examples of a “non-commerical” training organisations. Also note that if you agree with an ATO/DTO to use your own aircraft for your own training then a CAO/CAMO is not needed even if the training organisation is commercial.

GM1 ML.A.201(e) COMMERCIAL ATO/DTO
According to industry practice, the following are examples of aircraft not considered to be operated by a commercial ATO or a commercial DTO:
(a) Aircraft operated by an organisation holding an ATO certificate or a DTO declaration, created with the aim of promoting aerial sport or leisure aviation, on the conditions that:

  1. the aircraft is operated by the organisation on the basis of ownership or dry lease;
  2. the ATO/DTO is a non-profit organisation; and
  3. whenever non-members of the organisation are involved, such flights represent only a marginal activity of the organisation.

(b) Aircraft operated under Part-NCO by its owner together with an ATO or a DTO flight instructor for the purpose of training, when the contract between the owner and the training organisation and the procedures of the training organisation allow it. The continuing airworthiness of such aircraft remains under the responsibility of the owner, or of the CAMO or CAO contracted by the owner, if the owner has elected to contract a CAMO or CAO in accordance with ML.A.201(f).
(c) Aircraft used for very limited training flights due to the specific configuration of the aircraft and limited need for such flights

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 18 Dec 08:40
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

@Yeager wrote:

So, do I understand correctly, that to use my airplane for flight training with an ATO – the CAMO has to be with the ATO and not with myself (owner)? or can it be either, and if so, what would be the recommended choice, and why?

Whether or not you need a CAO/CAMO depends. See my post above. If you do, the training organisation is the operator and then, if the rule is to be taken literally, it must have the contract with the CAMO.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

@Airborne_Again

God Morgen.

QuoteAirborne_Again wrote:

The fact that an aircraft is used by a training organisation does not mean that you need a CAO/CAMO. You do if the training organisation is commercial, otherwise you do not. E.g. an ATO operated by a non-profit club does not need CAO/CAMO.

In my case, it is a commercial ATO. So, I would need CAMO. Unless, I´d change my whole approach towards the FI part, under some sort of a partnership scheme, but now we´re starting to look at extra admin considerations etc. and I´m not all to interested in spending time on that, to be honest.

(PS. one of the airplanes that I´m considering is based where you are!)

Socata Rallye MS.893E
Portugal
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