Ibra wrote:
I don’t think bolting 1×PT6 or 2×PW with FIKI boots will sort GA ground hassle or runway limitations? it’s an infrastructure issue combined with low client service
Maybe we are getting of topic here, but yes you need good GA friendly airports in each end for this to work smoothly. Some airports are problematic/bureaucratic often those also serving CAT without a dedicated GA area. Prices go up, service goes down. On the other hand in some airports, they understand that in a light aircraft travel what you really need is fuel and toilet :-). At my home airport things are fairly straight forward and this process doesn’t vary with aircraft type.
But trying to project airlines safety structure/standards on to private flying doesn’t make a lot of sense. It’s like comparing train travel with private car driving. Single pilot GA is already confined to small aircraft (relatively speaking) and are used for convenience and adventure, not safety as primary objective. That doesn’t mean people don’t care about safety, but it’s just not achievable to the same level and I think everybody involved in GA and single pilot flying accepts this.
Differentiation required. We’re not discussing local sport aviation accidents here. Mooney clearly means the last two accidents involving a Citation Jet and a Piaggio Avanti. How many dead people? 10? 11?
Unless you believe the (with high probability) unsuspecting non aviation educated passengers thought of dying as an adventure, I’d put those planes far away from the adventure categiry. These planes were more likely 24/7 all weather scheduled A-B travel machines.
Yes, a large airline‘s safety level isn’t achievable in such ops, but, that’s not the point, it’s not even required, especially looking at the tiny amount of flights. However that doesn’t mean that it’s wise to ignore some key principles learned by the industry in the last couple of decades. And such accidents, providing a useful report is published, are good reminders to reflect and improve.
Snoopy wrote:
Differentiation required. We’re not discussing local sport aviation accidents here. Mooney clearly means the last two accidents involving a Citation Jet and a Piaggio Avanti. How many dead people? 10? 11?
Unless you believe the (with high probability) unsuspecting non aviation educated passengers thought of dying as an adventure, I’d put those planes far away from the adventure categiry. These planes were more likely 24/7 all weather scheduled A-B travel machines.
Well, the Citation that ran out of fuel with a pressurization problem (happened in Baltic Sea not North Sea by the way), was a German pilot and his family.
It’s an unfortunate story but it’s really not any different than the many other accidents involving private pilots with their family and friends on board. The only thing that set it aside from most other accidents, was that fact he was rich enough to fly a jet. Statistically he was undertaking a much safer type of private flying than most of us here, but accident happened anyway. Let’s see if anything can be learned from the final report.
Some incidents play into the hands of those wanting stricter regulation of GA but fortunately most of the CAA people take a long term view.
But if many of the private pilots found on the “one line tossing” social media had their way, things would be very different.
Well, the Citation that ran out of fuel with a pressurization problem (happened in Baltic Sea not North Sea by the way), was a German pilot and his family.
I think someone flying 10T twin jet or 10T twin turbine helicopter privately will need to mimic commercial SOP to those aircraft, while they are very capable, they are very complex and unforgiving
Someone operating simple piston privately will usually have more flexibility on their mission and the risks they take, these are also naturally limited by aircraft capability (we don’t hear about hypoxia accidents in PA28-140 
), at the end of the day: no one forces you to fly and no one stops you from flying, the flying of these aircraft does not require much “SOP/Checklists”, I think one can stick basic “Habits/TEM” with load of flying currency (as long as they have fuel endurance, runway length and height above ground they do just fine)
I am not even sure even if applying airliners SOP or being versed on that in/out helps that much? one can easily look at safety record of commercial pilots or airline captains who crashed operating piston aircraft: some stalled it on base leg on sunny day, some flew into terrain, other lost it in clouds…
We do hear about “professional” CPL/ATP/IR holders who will parrot the whole day along on how they apply commercial SOP by heart in GA, the next day they fly single engine into the hills
https://aviation-safety.net/reports/2019/20190109_P28R_G-OARI.pdf#page10
https://www.baaa-acro.com/sites/default/files/2022-01/N757NY.pdf
THY wrote:
It’s an unfortunate story but it’s really not any different than the many other accidents involving private pilots with their family and friends on board.
Or professional pilots. You will need a lot of GA hypoxia accidents to catch up with the body count of that one.
Snoopy wrote:
Mooney clearly means the last two accidents involving a Citation Jet and a Piaggio Avanti. How many dead people? 10? 11?
4 in the Citation, 6 in the Piaggio. So 8 passengers.
Snoopy wrote:
These planes were more likely 24/7 all weather scheduled A-B travel machines.
Both were used more or less as family transport vehicles (Citation was owned by the pilot and used only by hime) or corporate machines (Piaggio, was used by various owners using a professional pilot (the same one since the airplane was new) to transport on business and pleasure trips.)
Peter wrote:
Some incidents play into the hands of those wanting stricter regulation of GA but fortunately most of the CAA people take a long term view.
The thing is: Those who are screaming murder in the true sense of the word are in this case pilots themselves. So why would they wish for stricter regulation which may well impact their own operation?
Quite a bit of this is envy. They are workerbees, some are PPL’s who get bodily reactions every time they walk through the Aero but can never afford a plane like this. So it’s sour grapes, if we can’t then why should those who can? They do forget however that lots of people are envious of us lowly PPL’s who fly a 60 year old spamcan and have the very same reactions to us than they have to the filthy rich.
Peter wrote:
But if many of the private pilots found on the “one line tossing” social media had their way, things would be very different.
They are cutting off the tree they are sitting on. And I can’t for the life of me understand why you want to do something like this.
Ibra wrote:
We do hear about “professional” CPL/ATP/IR holders who will parrot the whole day along on how they apply commercial SOP by heart in GA, the next day they fly single engine into the hills
Both pilots involved in the crashes here quoted were highly experienced at least CPL/IR holders. The Piaggio guy was a professional pilot, FOCA Expert and flight instructor for all his working life and a guy highly esteemed and liked for his professional attitude by all who knew him. The Citation owner had a charter business for decades and, as far as I know, has flown the Citation models for decades. This is NOT the case of PPL’s over their head. Both of those pilots met their fate due to circumstances we will likely never know but neglect or lack of capability to fly their airplanes is extremely unlikely in both cases.
Lot of complex jet and turboprops >7T flown privately by GA comes from ICAO Annex 6, I think these were knee-jerk reaction on death of the most famous baseball players of his time
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thurman_Munson
He bought CJ and died few weeeks after doing circuits in it on a nice day, I doubt he was someone with more money than sense? he was simply flying an unforgiving aircraft (no different than long haul B747 captain who will kill himself the first gusty day in twitchy microlight)
The loss of pressurisation case is a bit of an outlier and certainly require SOP training…the rest of GA accidents are summarised as either 1/ he pulled very hard in turn, go-around, takeoff or 2/ he flew very fast into runway or hill
