No. They postulate “no LPCs for VFR private pilots”, which seems impossible, given the ICAO framework…
Of course, they might postulate one thing in order to eventually achieve something like what you suggest. Still, it sounds a bit incompetent.
Back in Germany, I used to be a member of AOPA Germany, but never changed to AOPA Switzerland. Personally, they ask a huge annual fee (250 CHF) and I don’t have the feeling they do a lot of useful stuff here or have some “power”. Instead, they try to achieve questionable stuff like this…
A membership with the AeCS (Aéro-Club de Suisse) costs way less (74 CHF) and they do a lot more, like being present in politics and protecting our aviation rights and needs.
boscomantico wrote:
They postulate “no LPCs for VFR private pilots”, which seems impossible, given the ICAO framework…
Exactly. So whoever they do this for only they know. As I said I have my suspicions.
YakovD wrote:
If I remember correctly, in Switzerland after initial ELP test all the following 4-yearly checks can be done during SEP refresher training flight (provided that the instructor is endorsed as a language assessor).
This is correct.
Perhaps what AOPA is trying to do to achieve something similar also for an initial?
No, what they want to achieve is that their French speaking clientele are allowed to continue speaking French and nothing else, so not to do any ELP at all. However, even there they are barking up the wrong tree: The source of this is that the Swiss CAA mandated english as the language used on controlled aerodromes, so those based on controlled AD’s or who need to talk to people within CAS who do not have ELP have a problem. That is what started the whole discussion in our country.
Deleted to sequence my response with now edited and reposted content following below.
Silvaire wrote:
Please. The details of the existing disaster are tedious and who cares?
You live in a country where the whole flight instruction is done in English and where most people will communicate on RT just as well as going to 7-11 and buy a box of eggs. That is hardly comparable to any country where English is a 3rd or 4th language, at least on paper.
Obviously this is going to change anyhow these days. Our youngsters are learning English before any other language, so most of those still opposing the ELP exams are those who did their glider license or similar decades ago and somehow got past their RT exams at the same time. Many of those have not spoken a single word of English since.
I speak 4 languages and have done Aviation stuff in all of them. English is by all standards my 2nd language, so doing ELP was easy, even lvl 6, and I am done for life with it. My wife teaches Cambridge Exams, so I know the rest of the stuff as well (ELP levels roughly correspond to the Cambridge exam levels “First (B2) / 4”, “Advanced (C1) / 5” and “Proficiency (C2)/ 6” in the subjects of listening/comprehension and interview).
Also Aviation is not the only branch where language certificates become more and more relevant: I know several people who had to pass the above mentioned exams in order to get employment with English language jobs, for some other tasks you need language certificates these days. One guy I know had to pass a B2 German exam for his residence permit. e.t.c.
The situation in Europe is totally different than in the US. However, may I remind you that it was the FAA which were on the forefront of encouraging ICAO to do something about the English proficiency of pilots, as their main hubs JFK, LAX e.t.c. had massive problems with people who were incapable of understanding anything there? And no, I don’t think that standard phraseology has a lot to do with what goes on on any of those airports. I always liked communicating with them but it takes more than a cheat sheet to do that.
Silvaire wrote:
Responding to the @Mooney_Driver post that seems to have been edited,
Well, yes, I kicked my answer out because I don’t think I see the point anymore. Apart there were 2 pages of answers in between which my post did not take into account.
Responding to the @Mooney_Driver post that seems to have been edited and now reposted, my point about “who cares” was that the details of a grossly over regulated process don’t matter if the complexity of the description and what’s required of the pilot over time for ‘ELP’ in Europe are both absurd. Add to that the current Swiss gold plating beyond EASA requirements, as described by @antoinebk in post #10 and I think the best thing to do pragmatically would be throw the European ELP process away for aviation and start over.
In response to a @Mooney_Driver original pre-edited post, yes, what happens in the US is that a pilot taking his private pilot practical test is evaluated on his English language skills by the examiner in the right seat. Unless there is an issue, the pilot then ends up with ‘English Language Proficient’ printed on his pilot certificate for the rest of time, end of story. It works as well as anything else and apparently complies with the ICAO recommendation, which is the only reason FAA does it.
Also in response the original post which made the point that lots of US residents speak Spanish as their native language (it’s true) a substantial fraction of people in my local area are in that situation.. This is also the highest density area for GA in the world and it makes little difference to local aviation radio quality. Controllers all speak very good English and everybody else gets along fine. If you want to fly at busy airports and not make a fool of yourself, you learn to talk on the radio. Or alternately fly where little radio usage is required, some mostly Spanish speaking crop dusters I’ve run into come to mind. Pilots figure it out all by themselves without endless, tedious process that would discourage anybody from being a pilot.
Silvaire wrote:
I think the best thing to do pragmatically would be throw the European ELP process away for aviation and start over.
It is not an European process at all. it is an ICAO Mandate!!! World Wide!
That some countries give a crap about it and put LP’s into people’s papers who don’t deserve it is a different matter.
Silvaire wrote:
Yes, what happens in the US is that a pilot taking his private pilot practical test is evaluated on his English language skills by the examiner in the right seat. Unless there is an issue, the pilot then ends up with ‘English Language Proficient’ printed on his pilot certificate for the rest of time. It works as well as anything else and apparently complies with the ICAO recommendation, which is the only reason FAA does it.
That is the ideal process, but it requires that those who check those people are qualified to do so, which most are as English is their every day language. Obviously this is different outside the US, Australia and UK. If we wanted to implement that, we’d have to demand our examiners to be Level 6 language accessors. Apart: I know people who got rejected on the ground of their English skills in the US. Rightly so.
Silvaire wrote:
If you want to fly at busy airports and not make a fool of yourself, you learn to talk on the radio. Or alternately fly where little radio usage is required, some mostly Spanish speaking crop dusters I’ve run into come to mind.
You are aware that ELP is only required for Controlled airspace? Same thing here, apart from the fact that we don’t have crop dusters where I live, but we do have them in BG. At the level they are flying and where they are flying, they are 99% outside CAS
As I posted, IMHO pilot ELP is not generally a huge issue in Europe, among the small % of pilots who are actually likely to fly across a border. This Swiss business surprises me a bit but then I am not a local.
What is a big problem is ATC ELP and this is because there are powerful interests (ATC unions) who work hard to block adoption and who de facto make “ELP4” a sham in a lot of places. Every country in Europe has loads of people who speak excellent English and recruiting ATCOs out of this pool should be easy enough, IF the will existed. But, hey, I’ve started a storm here already and some people get pretty explosive, even when I post something which was previously posted by a resident of the said country and is therefore “ok” 
On the FAA side, there was seemingly some funny business at the former UK resident DPE’s operation. I am merely reading between the lines of an earlier version of that website (which was generally written in the spirit and language of someone hovering his finger on a Minuteman launch button, with the target coordinates holding a pseudo-random number) but he had someone turn up, impresonating a US PPL (quite possibly a 61.75; I can’t see doing a PPL thus) candidate who could not speak any English. The joke was discovered upon presentation of ID 
It is not an European process at all. it is an ICAO Mandate!!! World Wide!
The FAA process I described and you acknowledged is nothing whatsoever like the absurd ELP process for European pilots. The straightforward FAA process was only begrudgingly put into practice to check the box for ICAO compliance. Every pilot gets it, likely without even knowing. It none the less works OK.
Primarily Spanish speaking crop dusters in the US can fly in any US airspace they want, but if they don’t want to make a fool of themselves on the radio they’ll stay away from busy areas until they learn to do it well.
As I posted, IMHO pilot ELP is not generally a huge issue in Europe, among the small % of pilots who are actually likely to fly across a border
Makes sense, people learn what they need to do what they want, and self select into what they can do competently. People don’t generally like to look foolish in public.
What is a big problem is ATC ELP
That also makes sense, given that the job of ATC (unlike pilots) is to talk on the radio non-stop. They should also speak the local language well.
Peter wrote:
What is a big problem is ATC ELP and this is because there are powerful interests (ATC unions) who work hard to block adoption and who de facto make “ELP4” a sham in a lot of places.
The same goes for pilots in some countries.
ATCO’s need to pass ELP as well. And like pilots ATCO’s will “profit” from countries who don’t really want to do it and scam their ways through it. The tragedy in this is that exactly those countries were the reason ICAO started the ELP in the first place.
Peter wrote:
As I posted, IMHO pilot ELP is not generally a huge issue in Europe, among the small % of pilots who are actually likely to fly across a border.
I think it is going to be less and less an issue, as English spreads much quicker in the younger generation today. If I hear youngsters speak English today, some of which just picked it up before they even go to school, they won’t ever try to refuse such exams because they are a non-event to them. No videogame, most content on Youtube e.t.c. is in English, and they pick it up as they go along. Also if I hear radio coms today they are totally different to what they were 20-30 years ago. The level of English has improved massively, as people need it for their daily life.
Those who oppose ELP are mostly old codgers who either never learnt English and fell through the mesh by learning stuff by heart they don’t really understand or who out of nationalism don’t want to use English. Unfortunately there are still places in Europe who cultivate this mood very much.
