I have long wondered why, in the UK at least, abbreviated call-signs (on the radio) use the "G-" nationality identifier as the first letter.
ICAO Doc 9432 and CAP413
2.7.2.2 After satisfactory communication has been established, and provided that no confusion is likely to occur, aircraft call signs specified in 2.7.2.1 may be abbreviated as follows:
Type Example
a) the first and at least the last two characters of the aircraft registration G-CD or; Cessna G-CD
b) the telephony designator of the aircraft operating agency followed by at least the last two characters of the aircraft registration; FASTAIR AB
NCYankee said:
ATC: 7083N, I understand you are cancelling IFR
I like this prompt!
In my limited experience of flying in the US, both the American pilots and the ACT controllers are generally somewhat "relaxed" in their "radio" phraseology :)
ATC: 7083N, I understand you are cancelling IFR
I like this prompt!
That could get the controller into real trouble, at least in Europe. They must never suggest to a pilot to cancel IFR.
In my limited experience of flying in the US, both the American pilots and the ACT controllers are generally somewhat "relaxed" in their "radio" phraseology
Yes and that is due to 99% of all US pilots never flying in any other country and the language of radio communication being English. In other countries, people tend to stick more to ICAO phraseology, often because it's all the English they know :)
ATC: 7083N, I understand you are cancelling IFR
I really liked that one too 
They must never suggest to a pilot to cancel IFR.
They do have to say something however if e.g. you ask for a descent below their MVA or whatever.
people tend to stick more to ICAO phraseology, often because it's all the English they know
Too damn true, and a big can of worms. What happened to the proposal to have "conversational English" competence?
people tend to stick more to ICAO phraseology, often because it's all the English they know
Too damn true, and a big can of worms. What happened to the proposal to have "conversational English" competence?
I think it's not a bad thing because it works like those automated voice systems that only expect a few options and when they ask you "do you agree" and you say "never ever", they will respond with "thank you for agreeing" There are just a few things ATC could possibly say and it makes it easier to understand if you know what those options are.
In Germany, you can only use English for IFR because German is not an ICAO language (due to ICAO being founded in 1944) but it is common to switch to German when discussing something that is not directly related to controlling the flight. The other day I ran out of IFR alternates and ATC switched to German to discuss possible options and back to English to adjust my heading. That I think is OK and practical and still foreign aircraft will actually be able to understand everything of importance. When flying in France (French is an ICAO language), everything between ATC and French IFR pilots is done in French and foreigners may not understand much.
PS: You once commented on Southern European ATC not understanding requests like for weather information and thus you not being able to rely on getting METARs etc. My recent experience flying through Croatia, Albania, Macedonia, Greece to Egypt showed very good English for all ATC involved but Greece was still problematic. They just did not want to deliver such information, I either got "I will call you back" and that took forever or "in about 20 minutes, contact Macedonia RADAR and ask for weather information". The latter I found quite hilarious. I suspect Greek ATC don't have access to weather information, they have to make phone calls. English was not a problem. I think ATC have improved a lot in the last few years.
ATC in former Yugoslavia is excellent - I agree.
IME, Italy is much less good. Greece is OK on English in itself but quite inflexible.
Spain is perhaps the worst I know.
I agree re standard phrases but I don't think they adequately cover what is needed. Take yesterday for example. I was going to fly an IAP at 3200ft but was getting a Mode-A-only TCAS return at almost exactly my position, travelling along at a similar speed. Two of them actually. 3200ft was IMC; tops were ~3600ft. I asked ATC to fly most of the IAP at 4000ft, due to the two returns. I actually did not think they were in IMC - all I have seen over 11 years of flying suggests that people without Mode C are 99% likely low level VMC pilots - but why take the chance? Now fancy explaining that to a non English speaking ATCO. If you just ask to fly the IAP at 4000ft, he/she will probably just decline. One would have to use the traditional all-purpose lie and say "due weather". "Due icing" may not work because "ice" is much less well known.
And I am probably wrong about the 99% because I then had a near miss, in VMC, with a fairly pricey twin, showing Mode A only all the way
NZ use the last 3 letters only, like Oz. It's unusual to hear anything with a foreign reg in NZ apart from airliners! No idea what happens if an Ozzie plane does make it to NZ or vice versa: maybe the reggies are interlaced?
The worst in my experience is flying a Canadian a/c south of the border. This is because all Canadian reg's are of the form C-Gxxx. This may be personal to my tong-tied persona, but saying 'Cessna G-xxx' is really really hard because the poor old 1Mhz brain wants to follow 'G' with 4 letters, not 3!
Slightly off-topic but I find the convention of saying 'Cessna' or 'Skyhawk' incomparably superior to 'Golf', giving you instant awareness of what to look for. I really, really wish we could switch the UK to this convention. Prob 90 there's some beauracratic reason for wanting to know the aircraft's nationality here.
I once heard an interesting exchange in CA where a pilot said he was 'hyperdonkey etc' or somesuch made up name and the controller said: "Hyperdonkey? wassat?" and the pilot dutifully explained it was a one-off 1940's design and he'd just been to a rally of all the surviving examples. Controller sounded seriously impressed.
Standard phraseology is important even in the US. Anytime one brakes into non standard phraseology, it triggers: "Say Again" a large percent of the time.
A real controller would not use the communication "7083N, I understand you are cancelling IFR", I used it in jest to show the frustration of the part of the controller. However, I have heard pilots being admonished for repeated communications without identifying themselves properly, particularly with ATC instructions or clearances. Example, Bonanza 83N, I need you to confirm transmissions with your N number so I know you received it and will comply.
Thanks for the interesting replies. I have learned that they do it differently elsewhere, but I'm actually no wiser on why the UK does this... I was hoping to get the rationale for the current convention, rather than simply that the requirement appears in a ICAO document.
Amusingly, ICAO Doc 9432 says this:
2.7.2.2 After satisfactory communication has been established [...] aircraft call signs [...] may be abbreviated as follows:
Type
(a) the first and at least the last two characters of the aircraft registration;
This conforms exactly to the UK convention. However, it then continues... Example CD or Cessna CD
Ummm... I think they meant G-CD or Cessna G-CD.
Like Aveling, I also like the idea of prefixing the aircraft type. I think this would be very useful, though probably complicated with the large number of non-certified types appearing.
I also like the idea of prefixing the aircraft type. I think this would be very useful, though probably complicated with the large number of non-certified types appearing.
In the US, non-certified types identify themselves as 'experimental', so its not very complicated. A typical initial call might be "Experimental Kitfox 123AB, Freshwater Lake, landing with Delta"
Possibly more confusing was last weekend, when a Bölkow was doing T&Gs at one local tower controlled airport and then by chance received the call "Bölkow 234AB, 10 miles east, touch and goes with Charlie" (there are perhaps 10 airworthy Bölkows in north America :-)
