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Vintage & Classic National Permit to Fly

Hi,
I was curious to see what other European countries have a system like we have in Ireland. Over here we can take certain Vintage and Classic Aircraft, and operate them on a national permit to fly system overseen by a Members Group called ILAS. If we were not on this system the aircraft would be regular Annex 2 types and would need to be maintained by Licensed Aircraft Engineers. Under the system we have, the owner can do all the maintenance and the permit inspector signs it off. More detail here http://ilas.ie/about/ilas-faq/

In the UK the LAA have a similar system for their existing fleet of vintage aircraft.

I would love to know what other European countries have similar arrangements? The downside to this system is the aircraft only really has value to another member of the members group in that country, and the liquidity is very poor in your aircraft asset. If you want to take your aircraft and sell it to a buyer overseas you don’t really know how the crossover from one permit system to another should happen. Is there a similar system in France, Germany, Holland, Belgium etc ??

The list of aircraft we can have on this system is quite extensive;

Aeronca 11AC Chief
Aeronca 65-TAC
Aeronca Champion 7ECA
Aeronca Champion 7FC
Aeronca Champion 7GCAA
Aeronca Champion 7KCAB
Aeronca Sedan 15AC
American Champion Aircraft Bellanca 7GCAA
Auster J1
Cap 1310-c3 (Super Emeraude)
Cessna 120 & 140
DeHavilland DH82a
DeHavilland DHC-1 Chipmunk 22/22A
Druine D.62B Condor (Rollason Aircraft and Engines)
Ercoupe / Aircoupe Series (Erco 415C, Forney F-1, Alon A-2)
Falco F.8L Series 3 and 4
Gardan GY80-180
Luscombe Silvaire
Piper Cub J-3 & L-4
Piper Cub Coupe J4
Piper Cub Cruiser J5
Piper PA-12 Cruiser
Piper PA-16
Piper PA-22 (Colt & Tripacer)
Piper Super Cub PA-18 (L-18 & L-21)
Stampe SV4c
Stinson 108-3
Taylorcraft B65
Wassmer WA80/WA81
BA Swallow 1 and 2

Buying, Selling, Flying
EISG, Ireland

No Jodels?

Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom

Can you get them back into a normal register if you – say – want to sell them to Germany? Any factory built aircraft on a PtF ouside of Germany is only allowed to be operated for 180 days (or so) per year in Germany, so it’s a big point hindering people to actually buy those planes in Germany.

mh
Aufwind GmbH
EKPB, Germany

Back in the days in Sweden they used to make a lot of vintage aircraft into Experimentals which basically gives you the same benefits. It is not possible anymore but many vintage aircraft that has been in the country for a long time are therefore Experimentals.

Can you do flight training in these aircraft?

ESSZ, Sweden

Fly310 wrote:

Back in the days in Sweden they used to make a lot of vintage aircraft into Experimentals which basically gives you the same benefits

You can do that still in Norway, but only if you are restoring a wreck, or the aircraft have never had a C of A (like some military types). An aircraft with a valid C of A will not be transferred to the experimental category. In the eyes of the Norwegian AA, an old J3 cub is exactly as a brand new Cirrus even though EASA has another meaning and EASA regulations for the Cirrus.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

Jodels – Yes they should be on the list. There are D120’s and DR1050’s I know of on the system

Training – Not initial training but differences training. This year I expect we will be allowed to use them for initial training but thats just a rumour at the moment.

Export – I have no idea how to put them back as a regular Annex 2, but would expect it would need an export c of a. Not sure on that one.

Last Edited by WilliamF at 13 Feb 23:19
Buying, Selling, Flying
EISG, Ireland

WilliamF wrote:

Training – Not initial training but differences training. This year I expect we will be allowed to use them for initial training but thats just a rumour at the moment.

Roger, we should strive to achieve something like they have in UK where owners and their relatives can do initial training in LAA category aircraft.

ESSZ, Sweden

In Canada there is an ‘owner maintenance’ category which is approximately equivalent to this concept. This list is of aircraft is quite long and it is great for a handy and knowledgeable owner of an older aircraft. However, there are a few significant negative aspects to this regime. I am paraphrasing, but the gist of it is that you have to stamp an X on certain airframe/engine parts and they cannot return to the certified world.

Second, the FAA in America has ruled that these airplanes cannot fly in US airspace. If you put aircraft in this Category, it effectively stays there forever (in Canada)… Consequently, these planes do not have much of a resale value.

So it is great if you have an old Aeronca Champ and you just want to buzz about your farm, you can hanger it in a barn for free, do you own annual and maintain it as you please. Not so good if you want to tour North America.

Sans aircraft at the moment :-(, United Kingdom

the gist of it is that you have to stamp an X on certain airframe/engine parts and they cannot return to the certified world.

FWIW, that gotcha exists elsewhere in aviation. If you modify a certified part (e.g. to install in a homebuilt/experimental) you cannot return it to the certified world without doing an overhaul IAW the approved MM. That usually renders the part worthless except to others in the same community.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Back to the opening question: as far as I know, my own Belgian country only issues national licenses where they must, i.e. for aeroplanes that are not governed by EASA. Whatever plane can be flown on an EASA license will have to use that.

EBZH Kiewit, Belgium
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