Dan wrote:
My opinion, and I might be totally wrong here, is that u do nobody a favour by flying into AMS. But you might get yourself an ego boost, or more. Maybe.
It is an opinion, and you can certainly have it and express it. Hope you don’t mind me sharing some thoughts, and that you also don’t take it the wrong way.
I mainly find it a bit sad, to be honest, the idea that you shouldn’t use a big airport because the fees from a small plane will “never play for the infrastructure”. I’m not sure I pay enough for the roads that I use. Or, looking for a private business example, that I pay for all the mobile phone operators infrastructure. Should I stop driving or using mobile networks? We all use business and infrastructure that you only marginally help support. Someone might poke holes in these analogies, but I hope the general point is taken.
Also, why is a 737 full of weekend-in-the-city-party-goers, (exaggerating, I know) more important than a 172 with joy riders? It’s good citizenship to accommodate for larger aircraft, and their perfomance requirements. Or understand that a busy airport might need to prioritise the big metal, but where there’s a will, there’s a way, and some accommodations can be done, both ways,
For the specific case of Schiphol, they are blessed with a VFR approach and an almost dedicated runway for VFR traffic, that do not interfere with any other IFR traffic or approach. So by all means, if you are familiar with it, and in VMC, go ahead and cancel IFR. You might have to hold at Victor or other reporting points, you might have to do a mid-runway base leg, but you won’t hold up any other traffic.
And again, if you do want to an instrument approach, they are very accommodating, just expect to have a lower priority and that is fine, I guess.
Peter_Mundy wrote:
Wrong. 04/22 is in use for up to 737, biz jets etc.
It’s not bad at all, I’ve landed there several times both VFR and IFR. ATC is very professional and accommodating, they’ll easily merge you in on 04/22 because that runway isn’t that busy. It’s not like they have a business jet every 5 minutes like they have airliners on the other runways. Just expect quite specific circuit instructions, usually a threshold base to keep the circuit small and fit in quickly.
Frans wrote:
IFR might be a bit more “tricky” though.
IFR is like any other bigger IFR airport. They vector you around and you’ll end up on an ILS 04 or 22 together with the other SEPs and business jets. Only exception is when their main landing runway conflicts with 04/22, then for example in case of 06 you’ll get ILS 36R circling 04, to avoid flying a parallel approach to the airliners on 06. Or in nice weather you can make things easier by cancelling IFR and join the VFR circuit if you feel OK doing that.
In the end it’s just an airport like many others, with a special general aviation runway and the GA platform right next to it to make things a bit easier than other large airports. The downside is the 250-300 euros you’ll pay for landing, handling etc for a SEP below 2000kg.
Thomas28 wrote:
usually a threshold base to keep the circuit small and fit in quickly.
Not just for that, but also not to cross the extended centerline of either 36R (when landing on 04) or 27 (when landing on 22).
I was once flying to EHAM, VFR, when both 36R and 27 were in use (converging approaches). So you’re flying into a funnel from which there is no easy way out. I think ATC confirmed with me that I would be flying a threshold base 22, and an early left turn in case of a go-around, no less than three times.
Thomas28 wrote:
IFR is like any other bigger IFR airport..
Don’t forget that you might need a slot though. Filing a flight plan might not be enough. Check the AIP for the exact requirements and methods. Also, ATC doesn’t really like it if you spend an eternity bimbling down the ILS at 80-90 knots, while the bizjet behind you is doing it at 130+ knots. So for light GA they really appreciate if you cancel IFR early and arrive VFR via Victor.
Last, make a shortlist of the frequencies you’ll need and plan ahead. Both for arrival and departure you’ll need no less than four frequencies minimum:
Arrival: ATIS, Tower, Ground, GA (K-apron)
Departure: ATIS, Delivery, GA, Ground, Tower
Frans wrote:
but there is no security check at the GA terminal.
Actually there is a metal detector and an x-ray machine in the GA terminal, just before you go airside. I have not seen it in use though, but I guess it could be activated for certain types of flights, probably on request of the commander, operator or handler.
arj1 wrote:
Well, it does not contradict what he was saying – 04/22 is used for smaller a/c, not for the likes of 747/777.
The 04/22 can be used for 747/777 – the pavement is strong enough. It’s just on the short side. But I know a guy who is (was) a B747 type instructor. One of his party tricks for pilots he trains is that he contacts ATC beforehand, and arranges that this pilot-candidate-under-supervision gets to land on 22. No margin for error, but it can be done under the right circumstances. I think it’s only the A380 that is forbidden to land there. And that’s not for the runway itself, but for the insufficient width of the adjacent taxiways.
For the avoidance of any doubt I am a huge fan of Schiphol and especially the ATC persons. Which comparable international airport would close 04-22 one day a year to allow children to be flown by GA pilots #Stichting Hoogvliegers and provide a dedicated controller for the operation?
BackPacker wrote:
One of his party tricks for pilots he trains is that he contacts ATC beforehand, and arranges that this pilot-candidate-under-supervision gets to land on 22. No margin for error, but it can be done under the right circumstances.
There’s a big margin for error in all PART-CAT landings.
CAT.POL.A.230
The landing mass of the aeroplane determined in accordance with CAT.POL.A.105(a) for the estimated time of landing at the destination aerodrome and at any alternate aerodrome shall allow a full stop landing from 50 ft above the threshold:
(1) for turbo-jet powered aeroplanes, within 60 % of the landing distance available (LDA); and
I would concur that Schiphol is super GA friendly given it’s a major international hub. I’ve found them nothing but friendly, and they’re even happy to accommodate special requests if traffic allows. Coming from the US, I used to really enjoy the challenge of flying into large international hubs instead of the local smaller fields, and if you do it correctly it’s not a big burden. I go full throttle fully cleaned up on final, then make sure I know exactly where the best turnoff is so I can plan a touchdown that doesn’t have me taxiing for several minutes on the runway. Then I bleed off all the airspeed over the runway and touch down at that point.
My current base is EHRD, which has only one runway with both airline and GA traffic. While it’s much lower traffic than Schiphol, I would argue this is more of a challenge for ATC than Schiphol’s nearly dedicated 04/22.
loco wrote:
There’s a big margin for error in all PART-CAT landings.
I would assume that this challenge is executed within all legal restrictions, and that part of the challenge would be that the pilot-in-training would be able to calculate/verify that all legal obligations are met. Or hold his ground, refuse the 22 and go for a different runway.
BackPacker wrote:
I would assume that this challenge is executed within all legal restrictions, and that part of the challenge would be that the pilot-in-training would be able to calculate/verify that all legal obligations are met. Or hold his ground, refuse the 22 and go for a different runway.
Training for a type rating in a 747 would be part-NCC (and not part-CAT), would it not? Part-NCC has no stated requirement for margins above that of the actual landing distance. It is up to the pilot to decide on margins. Of course that puts a huge responsibility on the instructor to make sure that conditions are good and that the pilot in training executes the approach correctly.
BackPacker wrote:
threshold base 22
Excuse my ignorance. What is a threshold base please? I may be headed to Amsterdam in a couple of weeks.
Buckerfan wrote:
Excuse my ignorance. What is a threshold base please? I may be headed to Amsterdam in a couple of weeks.
I understand it as a base leg which “aims” at the runway threshold, so that you start final over the threshold (give or take the final turn radius).
