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Aosta LIMW

It is the cheapest in Italy

Italy

Peter wrote:

Am I right there is a glideslope depicted?

Yes. “ILS” and “GS” are also mention in the text boxes and it says “IGS” in the mimima box. (“IGS” — Instrument Guidance System, an ILS that doesn’t lead to the runway threshold.)

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

We already have had discussion about IGS and Mostar LQMO is very similar.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia

I am working out how to get to Aosta. The IFR-IFR route is quite long – it goes all the way to SRN before turning west to LIMW

@charlie how did you fly there? Sadly your original post didn’t pick up any interest; just a question about the avgas price

A IFR-VFR route seems to be a lot shorter

This shows the last bit of an inbound VFR route, on an old Jepp VFR chart; clearly doable at say FL150

One concern is any restricted areas…

The VAC covers the area La Salle to Chatillon, but La Salle to the airport is only 10nm and for flying back a lot more distance is needed to climb back up to say FL150 – perhaps 50nm for a TB20. This sort of track, for example

Getting there is easy – just fly ~ FL150, having cancelled IFR some way back, and then drop down into the canyon, via La Salle which is a VRP so they are sure to ask you to go via there. Perhaps even fly the ILS, under VFR, like I did with Bolzano. It is getting back out which needs some track miles; I doubt they let you zigzag east/west in their overhead

Any reports on actual procedures would be of much interest

A current French VFR chart is here and this is the area, with a departure route marked – is that ATC-viable? It avoids the RAs

Or using a proper topo map (this is what I fly with when crossing the Alps, in case of an engine failure)

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

FL150 and dive and drive is not going to work on your route because it crosses smack across LSGG TMA (plus you don’t need to be that high). Although with lesser traffic now you might be able to get away with it.

Aosta – La Thuile – Bourg St Maurice is a much better option for departure, enough track miles to make the crossing at a leisurely climb rate (at 90 kts you have 15 minutes to the pass and 6000ft to climb), and join IFR around Chambéry.

T28
Switzerland

I have been into Aosta a million years ago during my Swiss PPL training days. You are deep, deep, deep in a valley there with the Mt Blanc massif just off to your west.

The challenge with crossing the Alps VFR as suggested is that the peak of the Alps sometimes separates different weather systems, clear on one side and overcast on the other (more often overcast and smoggy on the industrial Italian side!).

You will just have to go and have a look on the day and be prepared to turn back. A good place to divert back to on the French/Swiss side would be Lausanne, or Annemasse. Both good sensible GA airports.

The route Peter suggests for climbing out of Aosta is quite sensible, but for gods sake have some good altitude before you leave the area of Aosta. I have flown (and ski toured) over the pass he suggests several times. If the weather is clear it will be the most spectacular flight of your life scenery wise. You could try and join IFR at the SPR (St Prex VOR) on Lac Leman, a few miles NE of Geneva. It is a very common joining point for Swiss GA traffic heading out over France.

Upper Harford private strip UK, near EGBJ, United Kingdom

T28 wrote:

FL150 and dive and drive is not going to work on your route because it crosses smack across LSGG TMA (plus you don’t need to be that high). Although with lesser traffic now you might be able to get away with it.

BTW, actually Swiss radar/Geneva will actually let you do that. Most times I fly into Sion I ask to descend to about F120 over Lac Leman and then cancel IFR whilst still very much in their TMA. They are perfectly happy with this, provided they know exactly where you are heading, and in fact will say things like “heading your discretion, but no turns right of current track”.

Another thought, you could use the same route I do initially to Sion, which is: from DJL Dijon, ask for direct to Lausanne LSGL, cancel IFR over the lake, descend to about FL100 and head up the valley from Montreux to Martigny and then instead of turning left to Sion, follow straight ahead to the Gd St Bernard Pass, or another pass to the right of that one.

Last Edited by Buckerfan at 30 Sep 21:46
Upper Harford private strip UK, near EGBJ, United Kingdom

R30A and R30B on top of MtBlanc are only applicable to paragliders and hangliders, AFAIK you are ok flying VFR in them (in gliders ) in aeroplanes or helicopters direct at FL150 or 10kft route along route Sallanche (now closed), Chamonix, BourgStMX, Courmayeur, Aosta or 10kft route via Geneva, Sion, Courmayeur, Aosta, which is ok but more exposed to wind directions and profiles and maybe be clogged on one side

Last Edited by Ibra at 30 Sep 22:04
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Peter was suggesting canceling IFR around Besancon and proceeding VFR from there which IME has lesser chances of success than canceling in the TMA as you do.

T28
Switzerland

I’m a VFR-only pilot, but know Aosta and surroundings a little bit. Personally, I would only recommend flying the Gd-St-Bernard Pass when you’re used and comfortable with flying trough some more narrow mountain canyons. Your posted routing via Col Ferret is even a bit higher, the valley more narrow and with less options to do something in worst-case scenario, so I would suggest (comming from Switzerland) to fly the Col du Gd-St-Bernard in 9.500 – 10.000 ft. For sure you can also fly higher, which makes stuff more easy, however, you then need a very steep decent down to 2.800 ft pattern altitude.

Another way as already mentioned for departure would be the arrival via the Col du Petit St-Bernard, coming from Bourg-Saint-Maurice (France) and then decent via La Thuile and La Salle towards the airfield. The routing is imho a bit more easy to fly and with less steep decent, compared with the Gd-St-Bernard, but it doesn’t make a big difference. However, you’re flying there direct on the south side of the Mont Blanc Massif and you need to watch out for nasty rotors, in case of strong northwestern winds.

Personally, but I’m not an IFR-pilot, if you just want to cross the Alps in a safe altitude of FL150, why not continue IFR until Italy, cancel IFR somewhere around Milano, Torino or Ivrea and then return VFR through the main valley towards Aosta? Is there not such a reasonable routing available? The part between Ivrea and Aosta is without any issues, a very easy to fly wide valley, even when you’re not so comfortable in flying trough mountains.

Last Edited by Frans at 30 Sep 23:44
Switzerland
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