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Anyone fancy a trip to Nuremberg EDDN? (and charter / CPL / AOC / etc discussion)

Peter wrote:

There is no “common purpose” requirement in Europe, currently. It is an FAA thing.

@Peter, even if there was such thing, who is to tell me that the love of flying cannot be such a purpose?
Mr. 1, why did you go there? I like flying. Mr. 2, why did you? I like flying. And we both don’t care if that destination airfield is A, B or C.

EGTR

I agree.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Interesting discussion, I’ve always been a bit clueless about the whole cost share thing.

However I didn’t actually mention this had to be a cost share flight. If the only option was some guy with a TBM and an ATPL then (ignoring the budget for now) we would pay him a reasonable price for the trip, covering all his costs and a bit of profit for him if that’s what he (or she of course) wants. There’s nothing wrong with that is there, providing it was conducted like a proper charter flight, except through an individual rather than a company.

But if, like you say, he had always wanted to go to Nuremberg, and that combined with a ‘love for flying’ meant that he decided to go ahead with the trip, then in that scenario I could join him and cost share. He does the trip he’s always wanted to do, I get to where I need to be, and nothing illegal (or bad practice) happens, right? Please educate me if I’ve got the wrong end of the stick somewhere:)

United Kingdom

If the only option was some guy with a TBM and an ATPL then (ignoring the budget for now) we would pay him a reasonable price for the trip, covering all his costs and a bit of profit for him if that’s what he (or she of course) wants.

No. You’d need to buy the TBM first, then hire a pilot.

always learning
LO__, Austria

Ah, of course, I remember reading that now you say it. And while it’s a lovely excuse to get a TBM, I don’t think I’ll go down that route:)

United Kingdom

There is no legal middle option between a cost shared flight and a charter flight (which needs an AOC and in reality a charter company).

Whether the pilot has a CPL or ATPL is irrelevant. To work for a charter firm he will need a CPL at least and in practice an IR. How to get an AOC.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

So what is the difference between a CPL and an ATPL then? I thought an ATPL was anything which involved getting paid to carry passengers, so does flying a charter flight not come under this category?

United Kingdom

In Europe, an ATPL is needed to command a flight with paying passengers, if turboprop or jet, – AFAIK.

To get an ATPL in Europe you need a CPL/ME/IR (the airline pilot schools call it a “frozen ATPL”) and then

  • 1500hrs total time (of which 100 at night), in almost any aircraft
  • 500hrs in a multi pilot certified aircraft (could be a full motion sim but nobody can afford that)
  • an LPC or some such

In the US it is different, and there is even a route for SE, and a different one for ME.

You can pilot a shagged old piston twin, AOC charter operated, with just a CPL (in practice a CPL/IR).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Snoopy wrote:

No. You’d need to buy the TBM first, then hire a pilot.

@Snoopy, are you sure that is the only option?
What if I pay a TBM owner to rent a plane and then a CPL to bring to some airport?
I don’t see anything that would stop me. Yes, I could not sell that trip to someone, that requires an AoC, I know, but what about renting?
AFAIK that is how corporate flying works – company hires a plane and a pilot, and it becomes a “general aviation” trip.

EGTR

Yes; if you supply the aircraft, you can employ a pilot to fly you around.

He just needs a CPL/IR.

The pilot must not supply the aircraft.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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