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Fly-in to La Cerdanya / Andorra LECD/LESU 16 October 2021

Ibra wrote:

In France, for cruising in that band (called LTA as it stands for low traffic area), I barely see more than one or two aircraft cruising there everyday in FR24

Yes exactly my experience. Only thing is that you cross several approach zones, so that’s the only concern, but for them you’re a stationary target


I know that in practice ATC don’t care,

Agree that for low traffic areas they don’t care, but you should put it in remarks (low performance departure) if you are going to block a SID at a busy airport. Again, no longer a practical issue as access to terminal airports has become economically impractical.

Unfortunately, was working this weekend and the Warrior is in the hangar getting some avionics. I do hope C172 David will post details of his route. While 600nm legs are impractical, these basic 4×4 aircraft are fine for two 400 nm legs in a day.

Oxford (EGTK)

Meeting certain climb rates or tell ATC often appears on the departure plates and/or notes at airfields in France eg Brest LFBR and Cannes being just 2 of many. It is usually a percentage and it is left to you to decide whether your aircraft can meet that or not.


I wa of course referring to enroute climbs. SID compliance is a totally different topic.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 18 Oct 10:21
Mainz (EDFZ), Germany

gallois wrote:

It is usually a percentage and it is left to you to decide whether your aircraft can meet that or not

Yes, it’s % for departures, something like 5%? easily doable with continious +150fpm in a Cub at 30kts GS (50kTAS into 20kts wind )
PS: you may still want to tell ATC you will be sitting in SID for 80min to hit FL120 on departure !

Paris/Essex, United Kingdom

boscomantico wrote:

I am almost sure @Airborne_Again would know…

I appreciate your confidence in me, but I actually don’t know. Like you, I have heard that ATC expects at least ±500 fpm, but I’ve never seen any authoritative document that says this. Certainly it is not in SERA.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden


3.2 Climb and Descent
3.2.1 Vacating (Leaving) Levels When pilots are instructed to report leaving a level, they should advise ATC that they have left an assigned level only when the aircraft’s altimeter indicates that the aircraft has actually departed from that level and is maintaining a positive rate of climb or descent in accordance with published procedures.
3.2.2 Level Restrictions Minimum Rates of Climb and Descent In order to ensure that controllers can accurately predict flight profiles to maintain standard vertical separation between aircraft, pilots of aircraft commencing a climb or descent in accordance with an ATC Clearance should inform the controller if they anticipate that their rate of climb or descent during the level change will be less than 500 ft per minute, or if at any time during such a climb or descent their vertical speed is, in fact, less than 500 ft per minute. This requirement applies to both the en-route phase of flight and to terminal holding above Transition Altitude.
Note: This is not a prohibition on the use of rates of climb or descent of less than 500 ft per minute where necessary to comply with other operating requirements

Paris/Essex, United Kingdom

This is a bit immaterial in the Pyrenees where you are out of radio range most of the time, and when you are in range, Barcelona tells you that you are VFR and limited to FL125 max, never issues an IFR clearance, but in fact you are IFR and in the Eurocontrol system as evident by the tracking data, and only Toulouse are aware of this, later

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:


Ok, but that’s a national rule in the UK. I’ve checked a couple of other European AIPs and can’t find any similar requirement.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

Ok, but that’s a national rule in the UK. I’ve checked a couple of other European AIPs and can’t find any similar requirement

Yes, I could not find a similar thing for Spain & France, I doubt this belong to harmonised “rules of the air”? more airspace & traffic management

PS: the UK has a long tradition of putting bits of licencing rules, aerodrome rules, rules of the air…in AIP rather than ANO/LASORS, it’s easy for CAA to write the AIP (no need for lawyers & politicians ) then these things hang around when the likes of SERA/FCL are introduced, other countries do it but maybe for other reasons?

Last Edited by Ibra at 18 Oct 12:11
Paris/Essex, United Kingdom
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