Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Shoreham EGKA to Greece, via Croatia, Sep 2021

Mooney_Driver wrote:

And from what we have read here particularly about Greece, this is just one more occasion where they can be anal. I would not think that Covid has done much more damage than what they had before, it just added one more way of telling GA to go to hell.

I think that is taking a very black view of the Greek people, who are overall very warm and welcoming. I think there is a lot of history involved and the associated behaviour in anything that touches government. Greece suffered a long time under military rule and then a system where the government took care of everything. That naturally leads to just follow instructions to the letter and a lack of incentive for original thinking. People need to see how different behaviour would change their lives. Innovation needs to be nurtured.

To balance the view here a bit, I have an experience from 2013 during a Swiss antique airplane group (11 aircraft) trip to Kefalonia. Someone in the group had a contact at the airport from a previous trip, a woman who handled tourist needs. We simply provided her with our crew/aircraft details and dates. She took her job very much to heart and organized everything …. a mini-van to take us on a day trip around the island with stops at beaches, restaurants, etc, as well as transport to our hotels, even arranging for a gas truck (auto fuel) to come to the airport for the aircraft that could use mogas. We all felt very well looked after. Such a huge difference compared to our reception at Corfu.

LSZK, Switzerland

I concur.

My “people experience” in Greece has always been 100% good. One absolutely could not say that about most of Europe, particularly the “old formerly empire-running countries in the south” where the default position is to dislike foreigners generally and tourists specifically (except while they are spending money) and – in aviation – often deliberately make life hard by refusing to speak English when they actually can do so. You can tear all your hair out trying to organise a fly-in anywhere, but particularly in Spain France or Italy. Or the Soviet Socialist Republic of Montenegro

The troubles in Greece start in the corporate scenario, which as we all know is airport management, but we all know this is a huge issue in every country in Europe. Greece has merely turned paperwork into an art form, after after the Fraport takeover the costs have gone up with it ~10×. I wrote about Greece e.g. here.

I’ve just got the permission to fly to Kithira tomorrow, after many emails and help from Petakas. Among other things, Greece wants your exact date/time of departure even if (of necessity, due to wx) these are fictitious, and without that you will never get the permission.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Airborne_Again wrote:

I think that is a bit too harsh. I have several friends and acquaintances who, even though they are twice vaccinated, seem genuinely scared and reluctant to return to a normal life (e.g. meeting people in grouops). You’re bound to find such people even among administrators and they will act accordingly.

My comment was in regard to flying around Europe, either as passenger or privately. It’s a major hassle. Whenever something doesn’t work it is due to „Corona“.
So, it’s not harsh at all. Corona is the bureaucrats dream come true, period. My phone album has been repurposed and is now a „Corona BS Exercise Screenshot Archive“.

always learning
LO__, Austria

chflyer wrote:

I think that is taking a very black view of the Greek people, who are overall very warm and welcoming.

Nothing would be further from my mind than accusing the Greek population. They are, as everyone sais here, warm, welcoming and could not be more helpful.

Their institutions on the other hand are enslaved by a bureaucracy however which has since I can think back held a life of it’s own, far removed from the every day Greek, who tries his best to avoid contact with them.

chflyer wrote:

People need to see how different behaviour would change their lives. Innovation needs to be nurtured.

Bit of chicken and egg dilemma I think. In order to untie the often Gordian Knot in such bureaucratic states, you need a massive effort. Basically you need to “reprogram” a structure which for ages has worked as you describe: CYA, you are not paid to think but just to do or die. That is difficult as hell.

It is not impossible however. I’ve seen some examples of this “can do” attitude in a Balkan state, where a few years ago bureaucracy was the big paralyser of society and economy, not to speak of the resulting corruption. While there is still loads to be done for that, the general change in attitude over the last 20 years has been astonishing. It would be interesting for a political scientist to analyze what factors played into this and apply them elsewhere

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

We made it to Kithira

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Feedback from AOPA Hellas re. Sitia’s response on lack of Medical Station.

By Medical Station they mean the medical personnel from local hospital who come in and check the PLF etc. travellers’ documents.
Sitia Hospital has just the minimum personnel to cater for 24hr shifts for the hospital.
There are no standby doctors lurking around..
The airport requested a shift to be available for the airport for ad hoc GENERAL AVIATION from abroad.
They request it to CAA HQ clarifying that the request is for GA/BA from abroad and CAA requested it to the National Civil Protection agency.
The request was not responded due to “lack of personnel” in Sitia. They have just the medical personnel catering for Eastern Crete region needs.

Regardless of CAA, AOPA Hellas, the airport and this is my personal opinion:

As much as it is disappointing, the country, like most countries, is “at war” with COVID.
All medical resources are dedicated there. At the same time rules for entry from abroad are strict but not crazy.
See: https://travel.gov.gr

The very last priority I would set if it was up to me, would be to delegate a shift of medical personnel (budgeted by the state) on standby for the casual General Aviator who would come in for vacations.
Lets not forget that GA Flying In from abroad is much lower in 2020~2021 due to COVID.
I would do it if I had a regular charter flight from abroad (and most likely I would transfer the cost to the charter LOL!)

Also there are options to fly to Sitia LGST nationally (not needing medical checks there) by entering in other international airports (mainly LGAV since Fraports are more expensive or other non Fraported with opening-closing hours like LGIO LGRX LGBL LGIR LGKP) and yes it has its toll on extra handling cost (technical stop without disembarking is charged much less) and extra time spent for the itinerary.
But this is the situation that we all face. “It is what it is”

The reason Sitia LGST has no Medical station is because the CHARTER it was regularly getting previous years dropped the flight due to low demand.
Its a cause & effect thing.

The does not provide “extra amenities” if there is no commercial traffic (demand to make it worth the state budget)

Example : Ioannina LGIO (the other low cost International airport for entry in Greece). They have AVGAS only because the seasonal Charter does indeed fly there this summer and the refueling station (JET A1) for the jet is providing also AVGAS since the refueler and the AVGAS tank is there anyway. Once the Charter ends the flights this autumn so will the provision of fuel in LGIO.

It is what it is …

… and that reminded me the epic dialogue !


LGMG Megara, Greece

petakas wrote:

By Medical Station they mean the medical personnel from local hospital who come in and check the PLF etc. travellers’ documents.

Why would they need a medical personnel to check a PLF or vaccine cert?

That’s like insisting on an aircraft engineer to check passengers boarding cards before they board an aircraft!

EIWT Weston, Ireland

I’ve had my Covid certificate checked twice this summer, once in Pula LDPL and once in Tours LFOT. In both instances the check was made by the same personnel who checked my ID…. that is the police/customs. There is really no need for medical personnel to do that check and I agree with @dublinpilot that it is overkill. Since Sitia is an AoE (Airport of Entry) I expect it has customs and police. Either of them could do the Covid check too. Not blaming the individuals at the airfield, more the bureaucracy that sees no reason to optimize at places serving the public….. I guess they don’t feel the same need for the tourist business as the local population.

LSZK, Switzerland

My reading of the LGST reply I got (above) is that somebody didn’t know what to do and asked somebody else who also didnt have a clue so came up with that response. And I should not have been passed the email “tail”

There is negligible foreign tourism to LGST but there has always been quite a lot of ferry traffic into Africa going via there. Especially since the “EU subsidy recovery scheme” (Fraport ) started milking everyone passing via Rhodos (€400 reported in 2018 just for a fuel stop and dropping a passenger off). Africa is full of piston and TP (Caravans) GA so LGST has for many years been very relevant – long before I started flying there in 2004 and sort of put it on the map as far as N European private piston GA goes…

My NHS vaccine certificate is being checked everywhere now, and this is done by the passport police. But in Greece (like a few other places e.g. Spain or Italy) you don’t use 1 person where you could use 3

I cannot help wondering how Croatia, despite heavy corruption throughout its business sphere (and with the church heavily involved) manages to run its “tourism interface” so well. You email one of the airports and 10 mins later you get a reply “Thank you, all arranged, you are welcome”. Dubrovnik is less than 10 mins. And the ferry, bus and airline times are coordinated. The thing is that everyone who is not a complete moron would do exactly this! I mean, if you are selling burgers next to a motorway, you will position your burger stall

where people can stop to buy your burgers

The people in Greece are so lovely and friendly but they just can’t organise stuff. It’s too deeply rooted in its social history, I guess, which goes back many years. General Freyberg’s final report is still unpublished AFAIK.

I got a really friendly welcome at Kithira. They are embarrassed at the AIP screwup, but I am amazed (well not that amazed, because most people don’t report on what didn’t work for them) that this didn’t come to light much sooner (like, 10-20 years sooner).

I am just processing my pics to date in Lightroom and will post some later.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

But I understand they won‘t change the AIP entry. Because, if customs/immigration were changed to NIL, then one wouldn‘t even be able to fly there from say Italy. Which one can.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top