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Flying N-reg in Europe with EASA license, and FI requirements for IR training in it

Hi guys,

so finally I dfound a nice aircraft which I brought back home yesterday ( a new presentation thread will be opened at some point, but suffice to say that I am very happy).
It is N-reg, and according to several FI in Italy it seems that it shall be enough to fly with N-registered aircraft as long as you are in EASA-land.

I got a discussion rolling with @Snoopy about how exactly one could get some instruction done in such a constellation, but it seemingly is not that easy. There is an older thread about this here: https://www.euroga.org/forums/flight-instruction-or-training-in-third-country-aircraft/10517

So, it seems that it is not that clear what is allowed and what is not. One variant is that one can fly an N-reg only in the country of his license. So, if you have a german license, you are restricted to Germany. ENAC seems to interpret it a little different, saying that as long as it is an EASA license, you are allowed to fly in EASA-countries. So far, so … Well, good, I guess.

Now, add the flight instructor into the mix. One would think that this also applies to him, if he holds an EASA license with FI on top. But according to FAA it’s not that easy. Seems that the solution would be that either the “student” holds an FAA license, or the instructor.

So, long story short: If I would like, for example, to get some IR training in my N-reg aircraft, putting the time towards my EASA license (and future CB-IR), can I fly with an instructor who has a) only an EASA license, or b) has an EASA license with the addition of a FAA license, or even c) has only a FAA license?

Thanks guys
Luaks

LOWI,LIPB, Italy

ENAC seems to interpret it a little different, saying that as long as it is an EASA license, you are allowed to fly in EASA-countries. So far, so … Well, good, I guess.

Nope… the FAA is in charge, and has clearly stated that EASA/EU isn’t a country.

EASA State of License = where one can fly N-reg with EASA license.

always learning
LO__, Austria

An EASA instructor can teach in N-reg in his country of his licence as in FAR61.3, the student can hold no PPL or taiwanese PPL, to solo on N-reg you will need “FAA student paper”, “FAA PPL” or “Country PPL”

To do instruction in N-reg while crossing borders for reward, it will gets very tricky, strictly speaking the instructor will need lot of papers if he is “EU resident” (FAA Class 1, EASA Class 1, EASA CPL, FAA CPL, EASA FI, FAA CFI)

EASA PPL+IRI/FI plus class 2 medical does not sort it out but it’s more than enough in the country of his licence

ENAC seems to interpret it a little different, saying that as long as it is an EASA license, you are allowed to fly in EASA-countries

That is not ENAC/EASA who decides on that, it’s FAA rules

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Aug 20:19
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

ENAC seems to interpret it a little different, saying that as long as it is an EASA license, you are allowed to fly in EASA-countries. So far, so … Well, good, I guess.

Well, yes, that is the European point of view. Europe only mandates an EASA license to fly in Europe. They don‘t care about FAA rules. However, from an FAA (the country of aircraft registration‘s) POV, you need an FAA license.
Chances are that here in Europe, nobody will ever ask you about your FAA license, not even if an accident happens. But still, strictly speaking, you legally need an FAA license for any flight outside of Italy.

Now, add the flight instructor into the mix. One would think that this also applies to him, if he holds an EASA license with FI on top. But according to FAA it’s not that easy.

What is not that easy? FAR 61.3 (a) (1) (vii) validates a pilot license (including its ratings, obviously) issued by the country within which one is flying. AFAIK, the FAA does not have any more to say about that.

So, long story short: If I would like, for example, to get some IR training in my N-reg aircraft, putting the time towards my EASA license (and future CB-IR), can I fly with an instructor who has a) only an EASA license, or b) has an EASA license with the addition of a FAA license, or even c) has only a FAA license?

See above. I have a German EASA license with FI rating. I could potentially train you in Germany in that aircraft.

But then again, when in Italy, even without an FAA license, YOU have the required license to operate the aircraft. So, as long as you have the required differences training for it, you can act as PIC and the „instructor“ in the righthand seat does not even have to have any license to show you some tricks. Of course, if you want the hours to count towards an IR, the he has to be an FI IR or IRI.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 29 Aug 20:25
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Taking Bosco‘s reply further, for IR training, if filed IFR, the instructor needs to be PIC (student has no IFR privileges).
If student and instructor have an EASA license from country A, then they can fly in country A.

What about flying in country B?

A workaround could be for @lukepower to have a 61.75, and do IR training under VFR acting as PIC with an IRI?

Another possibility would be to get 61.75 + FAA IR, then obtain EASA IR based on that?!

always learning
LO__, Austria

Wouldn’t it make more sense to keep the FAA IR at that point and forget about EASA?

LOWI,LIPB, Italy

What about flying in country B?

My (limited) understanding, if the instructor has licence in A, the instructor will be instructing on FAA papers in B, that means FAA C1+CPL+IR+CFII then if the instructor is “EU resident” he needs EASA C1+CPL+IR+IRI

Wouldn’t it make more sense to keep the FAA IR

But likely only valid in other countries other than the one of your licence (or residence)

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Aug 20:59
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

We’ve done a lot of this before. The basic problem is that most people in the training business don’t know the rules, don’t want to know the rules, make easy money processing the CPL/IR sausage machine clients, and saying No is the easy option. Even for a given pilot in a given location, the school options will change from one year to the next.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to keep the FAA IR at that point and forget about EASA?

The problem there is this whereby Brussels is forcing dual papers for EU based N-reg operators. There is no known enforcement. The derogations have supposedly ended in June 2022 but when I asked here, nobody responded so maybe nothing was announced.

if filed IFR, the instructor needs to be PIC (student has no IFR privileges).

If filed an IFR FP, yes, but most IR training doesn’t need that, nor does it need sub-VFR conditions.

See also this.

ENAC seems to interpret it a little different, saying that as long as it is an EASA license, you are allowed to fly in EASA-countries

They are wrong (the FAA decides, for an N-reg) but such a written confirmation would make a prosecution impossible, in any country which has a functioning justice system (not all of Europe).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Taking Bosco‘s reply further, for IR training, if filed IFR, the instructor needs to be PIC (student has no IFR privileges).

Why filing FPL makes any difference? I gather you mean everything after that: flying in weather, entering Class A, getting ATC separation and clearance…

The majority of operation people who file IFR flight plans for schools or airliners don’t even have PPL

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Aug 22:00
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Wouldn’t it make more sense to keep the FAA IR at that point and forget about EASA?

You need FAA + EASA if you’re a EU resident.

always learning
LO__, Austria
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