I am trying to plan my first ever flight to a Greek Island, specifically Milos, LGML. Trying to get a swim and some son in this year before we are locked down for the grim winter ahead.
We will already be in Venice I hope, and flying out of Venice Lido LIPV.
Early in the planning process I am already running into the difficult planning issues that I have read about on Peter’s and others trip reports.
Can anyone help me with a few quick tips please, specifically:
1) I recall reading that I need to enter Greece at a Customs and Immigration airport even though I am coming from the EU (ie Italy). Correct?
2) On the day I want to arrive at Milos (Sat Oct 10) the Notams say the airport is open from 5.20 to 11.10 Z, but that there is also a small open window from 14.30 to 15.40. And indeed there are small opening windows like these on many days, which I assume coincide with a commercial flight. Can these type of small opening time windows be counted on as reliable for planning, or do they get changed or cancelled on short notice.
3) Notam indicates that I need to coordinate my plans with Skyserve Handling. Is Skyserve easier to work with than Fraport, about whom I have heard so many horrible things.
4) I need to stop over somewhere in Greece to refuel (as there is no fuel in Milos), and maybe also for Customs and Immigration (see 1 above). I was hoping to use Ioannina in far northern Greece, based on the good things I have read on EuroGA, ie non-Fraport low hassle etc. However they close way to early on the day in question. What alternatives might work. I have read that Athens LGAV itself is surprisingly economical, but worry about the possibility of endless delays. Is Megara an option? Anywhere else on the mainland or the Peloponnese?
5) When I leave I will be heading back to England. I will need a place to refuel which will accept me from Greece and not cause me to quarantine on return. Southern Germany is the obvious spot. When coming back from Greece or the Adriatic Peter et al, what is a quick and easy customs airport in S Germany? I was preliminarily thinking about Friedrichshafen?
Buckerfan wrote:
Early in the planning process I am already running into the difficult planning issues that I have read about on Peter’s and others trip reports.Can anyone help me with a few quick tips please, specifically:
If you haven’t already, check out AOPA Greece’s excellent website about flying in Greece.
1) Yes, unfortunately you do need one for private flights
2) & 3) If your handling is arranged they will be there ;)
4) LGAV is fine. LGIO is ok. LGKR is another option.
1) yes
2) yes, and all Greek airports publish opening times in notams
3) Fraport just skim €€€ from the airports; they don’t provide a “user interface” and you still deal with whoever the handler is for GA
4) LGIO currently notams NO AVGAS
B1103/20
*+
AVGAS FUEL NOT AVAILABLE.
FROM: 30 AUG 2020 11:36 TO: 30 SEP 2020 23:59
LGAV and LGKR are ports of entry with avgas. LGMG has avgas but is not a port of entry. I would phone them beforehand and check they have avgas, however.
As per usual practice in GA, re-check notams on morning of the flight. Some websites query the notam database for just 24hrs ahead (and don’t tell you). Some stuff e.g. here.
Definitely read A-A’s link above.
As for getting back, nobody knows how the situation will evolve. Flying Greece to Germany direct is quite a leg; needs a long range plane. I believe an inbound from Croatia triggers a quarantine in most countries; @emir will know more.
Note that fuel stops (remaining airside) are normally allowed and sidestep CV19 restrictions/quarantine. The only exception I know of is Alderney where any full stop landing gets you “locked up”.
Sounds like a brilliant idea. I wish I could do it but Justine won’t do long legs anymore, and the airline option is out due to CV19 (too dangerous).
Milos LGML is lovely. Also Kithira LGKC is really beautiful which curiously is a port of entry and in a suitable plane can be done there and back from Dubrovnik. Neither of these have any fuel.
Yes Friedrichshafen is ok. Not necessarily quick, IME, because you have to go through the airline terminal. Maybe someone has a recent report.
LGIO does NOT currently have Avgas, and hasn’t had any for at least half a year ! The current NOTAM expires tomorrow, but I would be surprised if they had any in October.
Fraport has lowered their fees a little bit a couple of years ago. So if you are AOPA, a fuel stop at Corfu might not be all too expensive. Megara no immigration.
On 2) These NOTAMs are normally accurate, but it doesn’t hurt to check with the airport to confirm the operating hours. You have to get PPR anyway.
Just been talking to some people about this. It is actually a really good Q as to how you go back to the UK from Greece in the current matrix of regs!
If I was doing it, I would do it in one day and with a stop or two in Croatia; specifically on Brac or better still Mali Losinj. I am very confident that on Losinj the police will allow someone to use the toilet without any problem, and anyway Croatia probably doesn’t mind anyway for Greek arrivals.
When I did the trip to Losinj in May I carried a tent in case I had to land in say Germany and they would not let me into the country.
Obviously one needs a means of peeing during flight 
Thank you all very much for the great info.
@Buckerfan
Megara LGMG is the ideal stop for refueling.
No need for PPR if there is no overnight stay.
FUEL is available all days except Mondays (AVGAS at ~ 2.8€/Lt)
Operation hours are the ones notamed where it mentions “CAA services”
Megara has no handling which makes it the cheapest visit to an airport in Greece.
Megara is not a port of Entry hence you need to fly via another one to enter/exit.
Cheapest option for entry/exit (if you have AOPA, any AOPA, card and notify handler at least 24hrs ahead) and with less hassle is Ioannina LGIO which in turn has its own operation hours and in 2020 has discontinued AVGAS availability (a 2019 regular charter flight by airline did not continue in 2020 hence commercial flights fuel demand dropped significantly).
Just remember to fly in Greece you need two things.
An AOPA card (any AOPA) with which by notifying 24hrs ahead the handler the AOPA discount is valid.
Check the NOTAMs of the airports of interest because everything is posted and updated in NOTAMs there.
Check the NOTAMs of the destination again the morning before the flight.
Usually the schedules change on monthly basis (yes, based on airlines schedules) but sometimes there’ve been changes within the month.
Milos LGML and Kithira LGKC are ideal island destinations for South-central Greece.
My head is spinning trying to figure out this complexity. For anyone coming from the north, you cant land in Croatia for fuel because of quarantine restrictions, so to get to say Milos I would need to land in Ioannina to clear customs, then Megara to get fuel (as there is none in Milos) and then on to Milos, who have only one tiny opening window in the afternoon. Wow, the likelihood something going wrong, customs guy turns up late, refuelling delay etc makes this a logistical nightmare. Three different airports, three different PPRs, emails not getting answered, follow up calls going to voicemail etc. The alternative is Corfu where I can get fuel and customs, but have to deal with the nightmare of Fraport. The stress level of all this is becoming too much. I wouldn’t care so much if it was just me as I would accept it and stay in whatever local hotel for the night, but when you are taking the family along, who I don’t want to have to deal with this….
Serious question, how do local pilots based in Greece deal with this. I guess if you are based at say Megara you can simply take enough fuel along to hop around a couple of islands. But there must be many times when you cant get from one island to the next because the opening times don’t line up correctly? Can you call up and have a friendly chat in greek and get permission to land out of hours or something?
AFAIK you can go UK-Croatia no problem. Croatia-UK likewise but you face the 14 day quarantine back here. So perhaps come back via Italy and/or Germany.
From Croatia (assuming a plane with a decent range) you can go anywhere in Greece.
So, yeah, with LGIO having no avgas you may as well make a contribution to the Greek submarine fund and fly to say Samos LGSM. EuroGA airport database report. It has decent opening hours, avgas, etc and current notams are not saying it is out of avgas. It’s a lovely place too. It will cost you a lot less than you spend on 100LL getting down there. Some battles are not worth fighting, which is why I have never landed in Megara (for a visitor to Greece it is usually pointless).
Fraport is not an admin issue for a visitor; they just rip off everybody who lands there. The problem is that when the locals saw Fraport ripping everybody off, they got the idea that they should jump on the bandwagon too. Just follow the procedure with prior contact etc and it will be fine.
Because Greece speaks English, it is actually far easier than certain “old Europe” countries where they want you to learn their language and unless you can do so you can get situations where you land and it takes you 2 hours of saying “a-v-g-a-s” to everybody walking past before somebody wants to help you. With a few exceptions of anally retarded officials at airports, I really like the country and have found Greeks 100% friendly and really lovely people.
Re the opening timetables, if you look at some of my Greek trips where multiple islands were done, I usually did those so there was a “bigger” airport in between the small ones. The last one, 2018, we did Sitia – Karpathos – Kastelorizo where Karpathos is a “tourist airline” one and has thus got wide opening hours. Some of the inter-island trips are possible only in an F16 and on some days of the week are impossible
Also consider the Dubrovnik – Kithira – Dubrovnik option. Zero hassle.
There is very little GA in Greece, relative to what there should be given the great value of GA travel, with all the islands etc. It just isn’t a rich enough country, most of the big money which came in from Brussels bypassed the general population (like in some other places we know, down south) and there is negligible structural support for GA e.g. hangarage so – like in say Spain – most of the planes just sit outdoors and decompose. A huge wasted opportunity and very sad for all my Greek friends down there…
I am quite envious you are flying down to Greece
