Pioneer 300 versus RV 12

LeSving wrote:

Yes, and the Alpi 300 LSA cruses at 220 km/h = 119 knots.

Okay, you were talking about the FG-Version of the Pioneer 300. The Pioneer 300 Kite FG does 225 km/h/121 KTAS http://www.pioneer-aircraft.de/flugzeuge/modelle/pioneer-300-kite/#c54 and the RV 12 does 104 KTAS according to the Van’s homepage (both equipped with the Rotax 912 S, both at 75%). That’s still barely comparable Performance wise.

LeSving wrote:

The RV is an US LSA per default, this means fixed pitch for instance.

From their homepage:
Powerplant Kit: contains new Rotax 912ULS engine, engine installation kit and a Sensenich composite ground adjustable propeller.

A ground adjustable propeller is a fixed pitch propeller in flight (and also BTW takes a considerable amount of time to repitch on the ground)

Of course, but as long as Van’s doesn’t claim the opposite, I’d assume, that they’ve chosen the optimal pitch for the appropriate power setting for advertising. The RV12 is a rather slow aircraft.

In order to maximize overall performance, I’d imagine Vans would choose a pitch somewhere between the ideal settings for best climb and best cruise. What I don’t think they’d do is use a different pitch to maximize both climb and cruise separately on the same data sheet.

Comparing the two aircraft it seems to me that the fixed gear Pioneer 300 may perform a little better overall, at the cost of maybe being more expensive and certainly having less certain manufacturer support and the lower resale value that’s almost invariably associated with unusual, wood construction aircraft.

I’d probably rather have the fixed gear Pioneer, but the market speaks for itself and money matters With that in mind I’d actually build an RV-9A, which would be little more expensive than the RV-12 and have much better performance than either option. With an injected O-320 in the RV-9A you could also get the fuel burn down to about 20 liters/hr for throttled back ‘time building’ (or sight seeing etc) and still be going pretty fast.

Silvaire wrote:

I’d actually build an RV-9A, which would be little more expensive than the RV-12 and have much better performance

Couldn’t agree more. I really don’t get the appeal of an RV12.

The appeal of the RV-12 is that in the US a private pilot can let his 3rd Class medical expire and carry on flying it with nothing additional required. I think capturing that slice of the market, with its regulated maximum speed limit, is the intent of the design.

Here is where I got the kit price of €80k of the Pioneer 300. I also have it in email from the UK distributor.

https://www.alpiaviationuk.net/p300

Performance wise I can get 132kts at 75% power and it’s burning 19L an hour. Back to 125kts at 65% power. This evening there was no wind, and down low at 501ft on your own buzzing around it really feels like a little jet. Brilliant fun. The throttle springs are the only thing that take away from the enjoyment. They are sprung open like all Rotax and if you let go of the throttle without the friction set the throttle will slowly open….

Just had a look at the Alpi aviation site:

Empty Weight – 454kg
Maximum Take Off Weight – 560kg

Is that correct? 106 kg payload for a two seater?

If everything works out i will start building a RV-12 together with some students next year.
We looked at many different types, but the RV-12 seems to be the best fit.
We have limited funds and space and need a simple construction, where novices can start building.
The use of blind rivets and the huge amount of information and tutorials on the web helps in that regard.

Performance of the fishished plane is secondary for us – plan is to use it later to develop our own avionics.