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Flying the Lancair Evolution turboprop in Europe (production moved to Europe)

She either has no clue or is being economical with the truth. I reckon probably the latter.

And, let’s face it, most buyers don’t know about the “international privileges matrix”. It is known to those

  • who read EuroGA
  • who know it but don’t want to talk about it

I know a lot of people are not happy about the discussions on EuroGA, too. But this is better than not discussing it, and seeing somebody spend a packet of their money and discovering it afterwards.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
She either has no clue or is being economical with the truth. I reckon probably the latter.

And, let’s face it, most buyers don’t know about the “international privileges matrix”. It is known to those

* who read EuroGA
* who know it but don’t want to talk about it

According to this (https://www.ecac-ceac.org/images/activities/safety/Survey_Results_Implementation_status_of_ECAC_Recommendation_on_home-built_aircraft_1980.pdf), only Germany and the UK impose the VFR-only restriction. Unless the implementation of that agreement has been officially revoked anywhere, I would feel quite comfortable flying according to this agreement and letting a lawyer have a field day, should any issues arise.

Which leaves us with an interesting situation: Register in an ECAC country in order to take advantage of the 1980 agreement, but be limited to VFR in two of the largest and “weater-diverse” countries. Or register in the US and fly IFR under FAA rules, but then have to deal with permit-to-fly on a country-by-country, and maybe even flight-by-flight basis.

That same Lisa at JMB recommended letting a dispatch service handle the PtFs as required. Does anyone have any experience with that?

TXR
Roger Wilco
Switzerland

only Germany and the UK impose the VFR-only restriction

See e.g. here. ECAC is just some body which has no legal authority. Each country’s CAA does its own thing. And most European countries prohibit IFR in Annex 1 planes. The Evolution is Annex 1.

Register in an ECAC country in order to take advantage of the 1980 agreement,

That agreement is worthless legally.

That is why the Evolution (this thread topic) is nearly useless in Europe. It’s a plane which is for high altitude long distance flying, which in Europe requires IFR, mostly in CAS i.e. on Eurocontrol flight plans, etc.

That same Lisa at JMB recommended letting a dispatch service handle the PtFs as required. Does anyone have any experience with that?

There have always been flight support services which file flight plans (working out Eurocontrol routes), arrange PPRs etc, and even book hotels. Jeppesen is one of the best known ones, charging $xxx/month, and there are cheaper ones which produce a routepack for some €40 and these are used by low-end bizjet ops.

Nowadays, with Rocketroute (popular with TP and jet users) and the Autorouter (popular with lower end GA), and booking.com etc, these is less of a need for these support services, but bizjet pilots are often crazy-busy and working at short notice and they still use them, especially if going outside Europe. In the link I posted above you can find summaries of the permit matrix and the contact details for applying for permits so you can do it yourself. So what she was saying is meaningless; you won’t get the permit any faster (for Europe).

For the 3rd World, overflight agents are practically needed because the contacts are more complicated and can involve bribery. I have a few overflight agent details here but that is nothing related to the Evolution; it applies to any plane.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

That agreement is worthless legally.

No it’s not. It’s a legal document just like any other treaty or contract. It’s not law however, but things doesn’t need to be law to be legal. The AIPs usually tell if this recommendation is adopted. If it says nothing, well, then the cup is half full

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway
only Germany and the UK impose the VFR-only restriction.

www.austrocontrol.at wrote

Exemptions:
The following categories of aircraft are excluded from the permit requirements:
amateur-built aircraft which are registered in ECAC member states AND when conformity to the provisions acc. AIP GEN 1.5 (Section 3) is established

eAIP Austro Control wrote


3. OPERATION OF AMATEUR- / HOMEBUILT AIRCRAFT
3.1. Requirements for entry, departure and operation of amateur- /homebuilt aircraft to/from/within Austrian territory
3.2. Amateur-/ Homebuilt aircraft of ECAC-member states are accepted to fly without any restrictions other than those stated in the flight manual and/or pertinent restricted certificate of airwor- thiness or “permit to fly”.
Additionally, following general conditions have to be met:

• all flight documents must be available;
• for flights crossing the FIR-Boundary the applicable requirements of GEN 1.2 and ENR 1.10 apply;
• The insurances laid down according the aviation act must be concluded;
• The customs regulations must be complied with;
• pilots have to observe Austrian “Rules of the Air”;
• noise certificate from state of register or equivalent doc-ment must be available;
• for COM and ELT refer to GEN 1.5, 2.1.1 and 2.1.4;
only flights during daylight in accordance with visual flight rules are permitted;Underline
• flights at low altitude over crowds of people or densely populated areas are prohibited.
3.3. Operators of amateur-/ home-built aircraft, which do not fulfil above mentioned conditions may request a permission according to GEN 1.2.TXR wrote:

always learning
LO__, Austria

This goes round and round… Go back to the thread I linked above. For example it was thought that an Evolution flight CZ → HR (one commonly done some years ago), crossing the various countries, was legal because no laws could be found in those countries’ regs prohibiting it. Then, over time, back when people could be bothered to debate this, the stuff was found.

Norway, of course, is an exception

Nothing to do with the Evolution.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@ Snoopy:

www.austrocontrol.at wrote …

Fair point. That actually is listed in the table I linked to – I just neglected to mention it.

TXR
Roger Wilco
Switzerland

@ Peter:

See e.g. here. ECAC is just some body which has no legal authority. Each country’s CAA does its own thing. And most European countries prohibit IFR in Annex 1 planes. The Evolution is Annex 1.

I’ve read that thread and it hasn’t really clarified the issue at all. The legal status of ECAC is also not really the point. The table I linked to is not the agreement / recommendation itself. It’s a summary of how that recommendation has been implemented across the various countries to date, which I find rather useful. I’ll take that summary over a blanket statement that “most European countries prohibit IFR in Annex 1 planes”. Personally, I’m more interested in solutions than in “can’t be done”.

That agreement is worthless legally.

Again, it’s not about the agreement; it’s about how it’s been adopted.

That is why the Evolution (this thread topic) is nearly useless in Europe. It’s a plane which is for high altitude long distance flying, which in Europe requires IFR, mostly in CAS i.e. on Eurocontrol flight plans, etc.

Yes, I’m here to talk about the Evolution. I’m afraid “useless in Europe” is another blanket statement. (A) Apart from the UK (which as made things even more difficult by leaving EASA), Germany, and Austria, I still haven’t seen evidence that IFR can’t be done in an Evolution from an ECAC country. Not to mention an N-reg one. (B) It’s not true that high-altitude flying necessarily requires IFR. In Germany, FL100+ is airspace Charlie; in Switzerland it’s FL130/150, depending on military operating hours. VFR is not excluded from Charlie. You just need clearance. And Germany, as far as I can tell, routinely gives clearance for VFR flights above FL100 to high-and-fast machines – Turbo Mooneys and TTXs, for instance – you just have to ask for it. 300 KTAS will get you there, although it may not be FL280 for separation issues.

Nothing stops you from filing a flight plan with Eurocontrol for an Evolution… I don’t understand why that’s a concern.

There have always been flight support services which file flight plans (working out Eurocontrol routes), arrange PPRs etc, and even book hotels. Jeppesen is one of the best known ones, charging $xxx/month, and there are cheaper ones which produce a routepack for some €40 and these are used by low-end bizjet ops.

Nowadays, with Rocketroute (popular with TP and jet users) and the Autorouter (popular with lower end GA), and booking.com etc, these is less of a need for these support services, but bizjet pilots are often crazy-busy and working at short notice and they still use them, especially if going outside Europe.

That wasn’t my question. I can book a hotel myself, thanks. I was asking if anyone had experience using dispatch services to obtain Permits to Fly.

In the link I posted above you can find summaries of the permit matrix and the contact details for applying for permits so you can do it yourself. So what she was saying is meaningless; you won’t get the permit any faster (for Europe).

Thanks for the link, much appreciated. But again, I don’t know why you call what she said “meaningless”. If I can engage a service, a single point of contact, to work out which permits I need where and when, and to get them for me, then that’s a significant value-add over me using my own time. I’m sure that anyone who contemplates shelling out seven figures for an airplane will understand the economics of their own time.

Which brings us back to the Evolution. It’s obvious that flying one in Europe is a lot more complex than doing the same in the US, and that’s unfortunate. But I wouldn’t call it impossible. It comes down to the balance of it all. If you want something of similar performance, hassle-free and certified, you’re looking at a price tag of three to four million – in whatever major currency you fancy. With an Evolution, you’re looking at a million and a half, or thereabouts. So – how much hassle are you willing to endure for roughly two million in savings? In fact, for that money, I could afford a good, “pre-loved” Bonanza as a second plane for those “short hops” over to Germany or Austria in IMC (and still have over a million left), and save the Evolution for the longer hauls to less anally-retentive countries.

Depends on the individual, I would think. Which is why “useless” is a little too broad of a judgement, IMHO.

Last Edited by TXR at 02 Jun 21:50
TXR
Roger Wilco
Switzerland

Not many people are willing to argue this topic yet again, because digging up the reg is usually very hard and in some cases almost impossible; they are deep in national laws.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

TXR wrote:

Yes, I’m here to talk about the Evolution. I’m afraid “useless in Europe” is another blanket statement. (A) Apart from the UK (which as made things even more difficult by leaving EASA), Germany, and Austria, I still haven’t seen evidence that IFR can’t be done in an Evolution from an ECAC country.

@TXR, I think the question here is what can you get if you apply for a permission to fly IFR. Hence it doesn’t really matter what the blanket rules are – in the end, the foreign-reg aircraft that are still at the design stage (prototype testing) are getting the permits to fly IFR (yes, I know those are the EASA ones), so if you REALLY want to know, then you need to find the Evolution owners in Europe and ask them. Plus, as you’ve mentioned, nothing stops you from filing IFR in any aircraft, other than a threat of a ramp check and/or insurance problems (some countries might say that you’ve flown uninsured, which is a no-no).

EGTR
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