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Help understand the best option for flying around Europe - LSA or UL

Peter wrote:

the fun to hassle ratio would have been way too poor for most to bother

That is the essence of it. The hassle today in many regards of life by far outweighs the fun part. Which is why lots of people are totally discouraged to even try.

Check out the ratio of messages about hassles towards those who actually show flying at it’s best. Why was the reaction to Dan’s voyage so profound? Would it be the same, if there were a similar number of trip reports as opposed to problems and hassles? How many trip reports of just every day flying are there on the average forum relation to discussions about hassles? One in a hundred?

Peter wrote:

So documenting hassle and how to avoid it helps a lot of people enjoy flying.

I would say this is true for the experienced people who know that there IS some fun to be had outside the hassle. The effect it has on people who come here (or elsewhere on the Internet) to start out or to explore possibilities however can be that they simply give up before they ever start.

This does not mean that fora don’t have their use. But they are the worst place for newbies to come and look for motivational posts.

I fully agree with what @LeSving said about the internet: It was intended to be a resource of information but it has become a place which does far more damage than good. There can be too much “information”, too much “news” which are of no consequence to our daily life but which still drag you down, information you have access to you can not quantify and therefore overreact to. This is particularly true in medicine, where doctors with good reason will discourage people from reading up on their diseases on the internet.

In short, the Internet quite often is a reflection of the Sum of All Fears. Reading it projects the collected fears and concerns of mankind onto the reader. And humans are not really suited to be able to quantify information, particularly when it concerns them.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

ASW22 wrote:

If one needs to be sure to have followed every rule in every book to the highest standard then it is allmost impossible to do it (not just flying, but anything in life).

Well, with the fact of almost everything you do being in the public eye today, there is not really much choice than to stay on top of most regulation. Put one toe wrong and someone somewhere will know and hassle you about it. Part of this has to do with many people’s desire to boast about stuff they do on social media, parts has to do (particularly in aviation) with the fact that every flight today is totally in the public domain and also monitored by authorities quite closely and any threspass (i.e. airspace infringements) are prosecuted without much leeway or exception. And a huge part of being hassled has to do with people who cultivate envy as a way of life and are determined to see that nobody gets to do stuff they can not.

ASW22 wrote:

If one prepares the important things diligently and just accepts the reality of maybe just making a little “mistake” and needing to talk/argue about it later and to hold ones ground in an argument it gets way easier to achieve goals.

Exactly. Preparation and documentation is everything in this regard. Keep flight documents on file (Operational Flight Plan, Load and Balance sheet, receipts, maintenance releases, weather folder, fuel uplift sheets, digital record of flight path, e.t.c. ). The diligence required however has massively increased in recent years owing to PPR requirements and so on. Also, with the wealth of information which is totally impossible to absorb imho makes preparation not easier but much more of a hassle than it used to be.

ASW22 wrote:

But this is not an aviation problem – it is a problem of our society: never make a mistake and if someone else makes one you should point it out on the spot and prevent them from doing things you wouldn’t do due to fear of failure to comply with every regulation on this planet and their most strict interpretation.

This is what happens if too many people occupy space too close on top of each other and are given tools and means to supervise each other on a daily basis. People today also are far too open about things they do and hence open up themselves to challenges by others which they could avoid by shutting up about what they do. The problem is, that people crave to tell about what they enjoy and also are craving for approval and recognition. Social Media tap into this with gusto, collecting “likes” and being able to show off. The consequence however is that whatever you do will find someone who objects or will even report you to authorities if they feel you have somehow infringed their “rights” or “interests”. Big Brother way 30 years ago. Today, there are millions of “big brothers” who do nothing else than spy pn and challenge their fellow human beings about anything they feel is out of line. Wokeism, political correctness, all those things have made life ultra complex and do actually make some things impossible these days.

I was an aviation writer for 13 years in a flight sim mag, inventing stories and so on. I would not do that anymore today, as it is far too easy to put one toe wrong and being “cancelled” or even legally threatened if you insult someone out there who is only out to look for stuff to get insulted about. Today, when even established literature gets cancelled by the correctness crowd and angry social media mobs, I have no motivation whatsoever to continue my writing.

ASW22 wrote:

Do what makes you happy and let everyone else just live their lifes!

Yes, do what makes you happy and shut up about it. I know, I fail miserably at that as well and collect lots of flack for it, but that is the world we live in.

ASW22 wrote:

Sorry, but this is not my world anymore.

The world changes. Not mine either. In more than one way I am glad that I am old and won’t be around to see what else is coming. I’d honestly hate to be young these days. And I am watching my little girl, who is the light in my darkness, grow up. She will face challenges we could never have dreamt of.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

There is plenty of positivity on the internet. But it would be misleading to present positivity alone, because there is the other stuff you have to get right too. I started doing detailed trip writeups here in 2003, 9 years before EuroGA was started by myself and another pilot, and continue to get loads of positive feedback on these. Countless people have been encouraged to get into GA as a result of reading it.

On the topic of this thread, VFR does of course work. I don’t think it has got harder over the years; most of the changes are airport costs, and as a result VFR GA has in some countries shrunk to a “strip to strip” activity, while in others it has simply remained the “strip to strip weekend aeroclub trip” activity it always was. VFR “touring” was never a big thing in Europe. Most pilots who do distances have an IR and own their plane.

What is much easier is planning and navigation, with modern satnav apps. What you don’t want to be doing is this or emulate the Robin pilot I met in Corfu who flew there (with 3 women, IIRC ) with a road atlas.

I’ve just got back from a 10 day trip to Croatia and Sicily. I was in IMC for about 1 minute. It could have been done VFR in a homebuilt or UL. The most important thing you want is long range.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Mooney_Driver wrote:

….every flight today is totally in the public domain and also monitored by authorities quite closely and any threspass (i.e. airspace infringements) are prosecuted without much leeway or exception.

It isn’t quite that bad even in the UK, although certainly practises differ between authorities.

Today, when even established literature gets cancelled by the correctness crowd and angry social media mobs, I have no motivation whatsoever to continue my writing.

I don’t see how aviation writing would be affected by cancel culture. (Well, not unless it is blatantly racist/sexist.) Do you have an example of that actually happening.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

It isn’t quite that bad even in the UK, although certainly practises differ between authorities.

Well, and of course everyone can follow every flight on publicly available websites. And it has been known that some folks would send screenshots with what they think are transgressions to authorities.

Airborne_Again wrote:

Do you have an example of that actually happening.

I know that some books by one of Germany’s more prominent aviation authors of the 80ties have been taken off the shelf due to pressure from the “sexism” crowd. Thankfully he is not alive to see this debate.

The problem is not limited to aviation writing. Today, I would claim that there is NO book at all which is immune to cancel culture or similar stuff, as people who are only sitting out there watching out for stuff to be insulted about will find something to shout about. The only criteria will be that the book is popular enough or the context is front page worthy.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Peter wrote:

started doing detailed trip writeups here in 2003, 9 years before EuroGA was started by myself and another pilot, and continue to get loads of positive feedback on these. Countless people have been encouraged to get into GA as a result of reading it.

I know. I was one of them as you know, getting back into aviation because of such write ups.

I read multiple fora and am involved in one as you know. What I do notice is that trip reports have massively reduced over the last years while reports over hassle and unpleasantness have massively increased. This is not something particularly happening here, it happens everywhere. And stuff like your experience at LFMT are unfortunately the norm today, not the exception. PPR for what for goodness sake. Soon you’ll need to pre-book a visit to the toilet!

Peter wrote:

I don’t think it has got harder over the years; most of the changes are airport costs, and as a result VFR GA has in some countries shrunk to a “strip to strip” activity, while in others it has simply remained the “strip to strip weekend aeroclub trip” activity it always was.

What becomes more and more obvious is that any form of larger airports are becoming off limits. This includes formerly great GA destinations which I personally loved, ALL of which today scare people off with PPR and other rubbish which will cause more and more people to simply stop bothering.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Yeah; the main issue are PPR/PN (which reduces greatly if you remain intra schengen) and airport costs. But these are not related to VFR / UL / LSA / etc. AFAICT that community has never gone to the bigger airports in the first place. They have their own “strip” network – see countless posts re Spain and Italy, and much the same happens in France but to a lesser extent.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I agree that “woke” and people who want to point out the negative in everything (in order to feel better about themselves) is becoming a problem. But as others here said, you can make things happen if you really want. I was watching these on youtube and it seems they are having fun…

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzFYcDYfbNrh_lJbWbAdQKw
https://www.youtube.com/user/alichtman/videos (many videos on flight to Italy Cyprus etc)

Portugal

Well, and of course everyone can follow every flight on publicly available websites.

To be positive for once… that isn’t true in France and I don’t think anywhere else in Europe either. If you don’t have ADS-B and aren’t on an IFR flight plan then FR24 and Flightaware don’t know about you. I constantly see stuff flying overhead and FR24 shows nothing.

Very few small aircraft in France have ADS-B and I would say no aeroclub ones at all. It isn’t mandated and has no positive value since nobody else has it.

Different in the US where it is mandated if you want to go near Class B and hence bare-minimum ADS-B-out is being fitted to almost everything.

LFMD, France

johnh wrote:

To be positive for once… that isn’t true in France and I don’t think anywhere else in Europe either. If you don’t have ADS-B and aren’t on an IFR flight plan then FR24 and Flightaware don’t know about you. I constantly see stuff flying overhead and FR24 shows nothing.

@johnh, not correct – I found that all the a/c I fly (and none of them got ADS-B out) are tracked correcly on FlightAware, for example, using MLAT.

EGTR
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