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Switzerland requires permit on all foreign ultralights (and other countries doing similar stuff)

I think nobody here wants to forbid anyone to fly his UL and enjoy it. And one some routes across Europe, it is indeed “permit-free”.

When you went to Denmark 2x, did you get their permit? And for Norway? Did you never cross Belgium or Luxembourg on all these flights?

Would you ever have flown to Spain if they did not require a permit? Or to the UK? Would you like to fly to Switzerland in the future and will you do it?

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

boscomantico wrote:

When you went to Denmark 2x, did you get their permit? And for Norway? Did you never cross Belgium or Luxembourg on all these flights?

I always get all permits, since I’m also a flight instructor I try to follow the rules myself. But in all openness, I have been flying for 10+ years, nobody ever asked for my overflying permit.

You need permits, but once you know your way around it’s quite straightforward. For example in Denmark, you e-mail your documents and by the next day, you’ll have you’re OK for 3 months (for free). Since I’m based in Belgium It’s not a problem, but in Belgium, it’s basically the same as in Denmark. But you need to pay about 100 Euro and you get a permit for 1 year.

Would you ever have flown to Spain if they did not require a permit? Or to the UK?

I agree life could be easier without permits, but it’s not that I have had huge problems with it before. If you thick all the boxes, the process is quite smooth most of the time.

There is a list with requirements: https://emf.aero/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/MLA_flying_in_Europe-2-7-2021.pdf
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Would you like to fly to Switzerland in the future and will you do it

Switzerland was not a problem until now, so I agree, if every country would switch to the mindset of Switzerland, it will become a bigger problem.

Keep in mind I write all of this in the mindset of a hobby pilot, and I fully agree in the ideal world a Bonanza is much better, and I would switch to a Bonanza if I had the funds. But right now, for my mission profile and my budget, I enjoy this type of plane so much. It’s light, responsive, it has the latest avionics….

EBMO, EBKT

Just checked the EMF permit documentation file once again, I have a feeling the whole permit saga will get much worse in the years to come because of the weight changes. For example, for France you now also need a permit if you have a 600kg UL.

EBMO, EBKT

jvdo wrote:

But in all openness, I have been flying for 10+ years, nobody ever asked for my overflying permit.
Maybe they check if you have a permit, based on your flightplan? I actually can’t imagine that countries like Denmark or Norway would just “allow” people to fly there without a permit. It will for sure have some consequences, maybe upon arrival or later with an angry letter from the CAA back home. The situation might be different in France, where they just tolerate 600 kg UL entering their airspace. At least according to the information, I’ve heard.

jvdo wrote:
There is a list with requirements: https://emf.aero/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/MLA_flying_in_Europe-2-7-2021.pdf
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They still need to update the current Swiss situation.
Last Edited by Frans at 14 Jan 16:06
Switzerland

I actually can’t imagine that countries like Denmark or Norway would just “allow” people to fly there without a permit.

I think you overestimate the amount of scutiny and supervision that goes into GA flights.
Essentially, nothing is ever checked, unless something happens.

A few (but not many) years before you started flying, there was a guy in Germany who bought an old D-reg Learjet.
The Learjet had no Annual/ARC and got no maintenance. No insurance either, of course. The pilot did not have a proper pilots license.

Still, he managed to fly (single „pilot“!) for a few years without getting caught. And he not only flew himself. He openly advertised for flying people around as per their wishes, posting on P&F, youtube, etc.

https://www.pilotundflugzeug.de/forum/2012,08,06,22,4256010

Even in the end, his flying wasn‘t stopped because they caught him, but because he crashlanded the aircraft after running out of fuel…

Last Edited by boscomantico at 14 Jan 16:24
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

There is an old thread here which describes a public Eurocontrol database which shows the number of flights per aircraft type, and a number of them are not certified for IFR So, yeah, nobody is checking. Also check the Lancair Evolution threads.

I’m a VFR only PPL/UL pilot. I only fly with my girlfriend on trips. Why would I rent a C172 if I can fly a WT9?

The answer is simply that there is a quid pro quo in aviation, that an ICAO certified aircraft gets internal flight privileges (noncommercial, non-instructional, etc, and not in the 3rd world which signed ICAO but ignores it so you can’t overfly say Angola, AFAIK). There is no logic in this. It is just an agreement which was made and which has facilitated international flying. A lot of it is ridiculous but that’s partly because a lot of people have done what people do everywhere and spotted an opportunity to position themselves on a stream of revenue and milk it

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

boscomantico wrote:

I think you overestimate the amount of scutiny and supervision that goes into GA flights.

I agree

EBMO, EBKT

boscomantico wrote:

A few (but not many) years before you started flying, there was a guy in Germany who bought an old D-reg Learjet.
The Learjet had no Annual/ARC and got no maintenance. No insurance either, of course. The pilot did not have a proper pilots license.
Unbelievable! Didn’t know that story, but it made me speechless. Especially that flying an airplane without annual/ARC, insurance and maintenance is possible for so many years. That wouldn’t even be possible for so long with a car. In the Netherlands, you get even a full automatic fine, as soon as your vehicle inspection and/or insurance isn’t current anymore. And I also don’t think I can drive my German registered car for so long without “TüV” (German biannual inspection) or insurance, without getting caught by the police or “Straßenverkehrsamt” (road traffic office).

This case remembers me also about the case of Thomas Salme, how was a Swedish commercial pilot for 14 years without a license, although he had an expired PPL. He worked for several airlines since 1997, latest Corendon Airlines. He was caught in 2010 at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport. Apropos Amsterdam… Dutch authorities do like ramp checks. If you do something illegal, better not flying from/to the Netherlands.

On the other hand… There are checks based on your flightplan. For example, if you need a permission number in the RMK section of a flightplan. Without it, you may be refused to land on a certain airfield or to enter a certain airspace. And I could imagine that some countries use this “system” also for UL permits and allowance to enter foreign airspaces. Or they just match the registration with a list of valid UL permits, which might be easier to do, than checking if a certified aircraft has a valid ARC and/or insurance.
Last Edited by Frans at 14 Jan 16:58
Switzerland

Sure, with Switzerland, you never know what ideas they come up with to satisfy their desire for law and order…

Would I fly to Belgium without an ultralight permit? Pretty much. Would I do the same in Switzerland? Nope.

Didn’t know that story

I guessed so, therefore I posted it.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 14 Jan 17:10
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

There are many ways to game the system though, if you know how it works.

Nothing prevents you flying an RV on a flight plan saying it is a TB20 – if you takeoff and land where the tower can’t see you (e.g. at night, between farm strips, etc) and it would work perfectly if you filed a certified type which looks very similar to an RV. Same incidentally with filing with an invalid tail number. Misprogramming a Mode S TXP has happened lots of times.

Your CofA can be expired for years. Check out the Graham Hill Aztec crash – previous threads here. Somebody appears to have done an Export CofA on the plane and he didn’t know (actually doing an unwanted Export CofA has happened to various people over the years).

Sure cars are checked, often by roadside OCR equipment, but again those who know the system will just use the number plates of the same type of car based many miles away. Are the database queries checking geographical plausibility (like one might do on a web server to detect multiple users of a paid subscription, etc)? I doubt it.

As regards fake pilot licenses, I’ve heard stories (details can’t be posted) where e.g. somebody got a full JAA CPL/IR by converting paperwork from a country whose language the said CAA could not read, and he told them it’s an ATPL The end result is not a fake but it is as valid as a very good fake passport which came via a “contact” in the passport office.

Would I fly to Belgium without an ultralight permit? Pretty much.

You probably would not if coming from the UK

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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