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Skydemon (merged thread)

Is there a legal eagle here who can confirm that statement, preferably backed up by case precedent? Even if there is no liability the possibility of the costs of defending a legal action could be crippling and who needs the added stress.

EHLE / Lelystad, Netherlands, Netherlands

A lawyer will never say “there is no liability here”

The key thing is “demonstrated liability”. Can anyone come up with a case where the vendor of a VFR product (especially one with the usual disclaimer on startup) was sued?

This approach to “theoretical liability” prevents having any declutter options. In fact it mandates a map which contains absolutely everything, all the time. There is an interesting challenge: where do you find an aeronautical database which contains absolutely everything… it would be infinite in size If somebody asserts that not showing gliding sites exposes them to litigation, the app must also show stuff like IAP paths because you could be flying in Class G, through some IAP path, and hit somebody. All airspace declutter is also dodgy.

The result will be unusable. Well, the result will be Oziexplorer, or some similar generic moving map product, running a totally dumb raster version of the “printed” national-CAA chart, because nobody can sue the CAA

In the end, users can vote on this very easily, with their credit cards.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

The key thing is “demonstrated liability”. Can anyone come up with a case where the vendor of a VFR product (especially one with the usual disclaimer on startup) was sued?

SD isn’t a VFR product anymore. The disclaimer used to limit SD usage to VFR, but now it says it must not be used for “primary navigation in IMC flight”. Which is a completely sensible restriction for an unlicensed product. In practice it doesn’t limit the use of SD in IMC as long as the aircraft also has a certified IFR navigator.

Not that I believe that is of any consequence for the gliding site issue.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Matt_FK wrote:

Garmin Pilot bevore that…

I had a try and rapidly go back to SD. Garmin pilot is better for IFR, but still not at the level of FF, and you need the IPAD version because android one can’t show you approach charts.

LFMD, France

I don’t have auto update turned on on my phone but I think it is on my little tablet, this may be a mistake.

Fortunately I’ve had very good luck with skydemon and really do like the package. I find it tends to get better, I only recently discovered that in flight clicking on the little time estimate boxes on the top cycles all sorts of useful information. The only issue I’ve had on the tablet is it was extremely slow to pick up GPS a few times recently. However I suspect this is a tablet issue which seems to have sorted itself.

The desktop program won’t seem to start on my desktop any more though following an update which has been really frustrating, and I’ve not been able to sort that. So instead I’m just using it on my laptop, which is working but slightly less convenient.

I think liability comes because they are using “official CAA/NAA VFR charts” in the background? maybe they could do it the other way around offer to start with “airways mode chart” and opt to add airspace & symbols?

There was a story on RA notams and online data updates were OFF that backfired on them so lot of CYA exercises now…

Last Edited by Ibra at 18 Jun 12:35
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

I think liability comes because they are using “official CAA/NAA VFR charts” in the background? maybe they could do it the other way around offer to start with “airways mode chart” and opt to add airspace & symbols?

There was a story on RA notams and online data updates were OFF that backfired on them so lot of CYA exercises now…

Are we still talking about SkyDemon?

They don’t use official charts in the background — they have their own charts. There are no “online data updates” that you can turn on or off. You always update charts manually, but you are also notified by pop-up when new charts versions are available.

What are “RA notams”?

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

There was a story on RA notams and online data updates were OFF that backfired on them

Do you have any details?

Notam provision is a potential liability area but no more than map provision. Well, it may depend on whether people can select notam categories in the way they can select map layers.

But still I have never heard of litigation against a “retail” satnav app vendor. Jeppesen got some due to terminal chart errors but that’s a different thing. They need really good QA. OTOH, SD quite happily didn’t display some airspace in Italy years back – there is a thread somewhere… a search will eventually dig it out; some mention here.

I think the reason for the lack of litigation is that the vendor always has the “ICAO compliant flight training” defence i.e. a PPL holder has been trained to use dead reckoning as primary, and everything else is “just a toy add-on” which the training machine has nothing to do with. If say SD was integrated into a CAA approved PPL syllabus then their liability picture would be totally different.

What are “RA notams”?

Perhaps restricted areas?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Airborne_Again wrote:

Are we still talking about SkyDemon?
They don’t use official charts in the background — they have their own charts. There are no “online data updates” that you can turn on or off. You always update charts manually, but you are also notified by pop-up when new charts versions are available.

What are “RA notams”?

Sorry was not clear, they use their own chart data & format but they do overly in “UK CAA map format” which put emphasis on few symbols, this comes handy when flying VFR elsewhere as I don’t have the time to learn about other countries format & symbols fro airspace and features (personally I can only open & process French IGN or US sectional while flying, the rest I just overlook ), in comparison, ForeFlight tend to use scanned “VFR map image” which goes bad when you zoom in/out (still give some awareness of distance)

On RA and online/offline cellular data for map visualisation of the notams on the map, maybe this is relevant?
https://www.aopa.co.uk/news-media/selected-news/item/393-pilot-fined-for-infringing-restricted-area.html

On 23 January 2019, Magistrates imposed a £1250 fine and ordered costs of £750 to be paid to the Civil Aviation Authority, following a guilty plea by a pilot to an offence of infringing the RAF Cosford RA on 9 June 2018.

The Court heard that the pilot was ferrying an aircraft from the USA to Oxford when he entered the RA at 2000 ft without a clearance. Air Traffic Control established contact with the pilot and advised an immediate turn to the west to exit. The pilot turned onto a south-westerly heading which took him into conflict with a Boeing 757 positioning for a practice display.

An AIRPROX was filed due to the proximity of the 2 aircraft in airspace that was segregated for the safe operation of aircraft participating in rehearsals for the RAF Cosford Air Show.

In Court, the pilot told the Magistrates that he was using a moving map, in this case SkyDemon, but when he conducted his pre-flight briefing, he was not connected to a wi-fi network. Consequently, the application did not provide airspace updates. He did not check active NOTAM because he was using the application as his sole source of information. His “over-reliance” on SkyDemon and failure to note the offline status of his device meant that he did not have situational awareness (SA) of the airspace into which he was to operate.

The CAA actively promotes the use of moving map technology as a mitigation against airspace infringements. Pilots must ensure that they are using the application and device correctly however when planning and executing a flight. Failure to do so without a back-up, such as a carrying out a comprehensive NOTAM brief, use of the AIS Telephone Information Line, checking the relevant AICs and plotting the route on a paper chart, increases the probability of a reduction of SA.

NATS AIS NOTAM and AIC – www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php.html

AIS Telephone Information Line – 08085-354802 or +44(0)1489-88751

Last Edited by Ibra at 18 Jun 13:32
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Just a comparison of US VFR map near KeyWest with “SD in UK CAA format” and “FF VFR US sectional”

VS

Last Edited by Ibra at 18 Jun 13:41
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
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