Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Welcome to our forums

Is there too much negativity on EuroGA?

Negativity yes, too much? I don’t feel so. After all, this negativity is only a reflection of the state of GA here, and the clouds forming on the horizon…

Think about it for one second… If humans were not negative per se but a constantly happy bunch, we’d still be living in caves, and worse, there’d be no EuroGA.

ain't the Destination, but the Journey
LSZF, Switzerland

Fernando wrote:

So, yes, I would say there’s a lot of negativity in GA. The forum just reflects that.

I think this pretty much sums it up.

As I am reading some other fora as well, I think the situation is the same across the aviation fora, particularly in GA fora.

This forum here has a unusual quota of people who are capable of discussions on a rather high intellectual level and who are used to getting and absorbing straight answers. To the casual observer this may well be interpreted as “negativity”, but I think that does not do it justice.

We discuss the problems we have in GA here in order to find solutions out of the combined swarm intelligence here. That is a very important function of the forum.
The same goes for many other aviation fora, such as Mooneyspace and others I frequent.

Can this scare newbies off? Sure. The thing there is, it has to be kept into perspective. And I know I am sometimes not the best at it, even though I try particularly in certain topics.

The first one is about buying airplanes. Practically always when people ask about a particular airplane or about ownership in general, the knee jerk reaction is negative to the “sum of all fears” status, where people are being told to “run, not walk” in almost all cases they look at a particular airplane. This I find problematic because it does present the actual condition of GA much worse than it actually is and in addition in most cases, the information we have from the adds is far from enough to even get an educated guess. On top of that, people’s opinion of what presents a good deal or what is a “shagged airframe” differs drastically.

I’ve had many folks talk to me about buying airplanes and I still do a bit of consulting as a hobby there. Quite a few will voice the opinion that they were shouted down in “the fora” with their question about airplane ownership. “You’re too unexperienced for this plane” (Cessna 210, Mooneys, Arrows), “this engine is 100% shagged and broken”, “it will take millions to get it back to an acceptable shape” e.t.c. and the all time “favorite”: “If you have to ask what it cost’s you can’t afford it”.

IMHO, this is not a constructive way to introduce people to airplane ownership. Each airplane has pros and cons, some airplanes which were torn to pieces by the fora were sold within days and have made the new owners happy (the ones I get feedback from), if a proper PPI is done most folks will do just fine.

Stuff like “avionic sharks” go into the same direction: While it is very important to inform folks about the problems with avionic shops, it does not help anyone if in the end the impression goes forth that ALL maintenance and avionic shops are run by crooks, because a significant number are not.

Again, this is not a thing limited to EuroGA, but definitly present here.

The 2nd thing which sometimes demotivates me is the often seemingly overwhelming sorts of problems you get if you want to fly out of your traffic circuit, let alone do touring as most of us actually aim for.

There is not much we can do about it, as the situation particularly with regards to larger airports vs GA is pretty desperate in Europe. The best kind of thing against that would be to do trip reports as done by Peter, Dan, boscomantico and many others. They are the definite counterweight to that.

Other than that, I can only repeat what others have said: This forum is one where the level of discussion is by far the best of all the fora I frequent. Yes, there is sometimes quarrels, but the tone almost always stays respectful and there are not many folks here who would not walk away from one of those quarrels and not have a beer with the opponent. Matter of fact, I got quite a few folks on my list I’d love to do that with. That is definitely not the case in other places.

So rather than questioning the subjects we discuss, the one thing I could see where EuroGA can make once more a difference is the way we treat newbies and their inquiries. While they need to know the pros and cons, it does not help if they end up running far and fast and buy a bicycle instead.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 14 Jan 14:36
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Yes, there is much negativity on EuroGA and No, I find it appropriate for the subjects discussed under the circumstances we face.


I don’t really think so. A lot of what could be perceived as negativity obviously stems from the frustrations European GA flyers have to contend with. I perhaps find some of these issues a little exaggerated here, but hey, that’s no big deal. There are some – rare – occasions – where a debate gets a tad excited, but by and large this is an extremely polite forum where people who largely are very knowledgeable in their field(s) have a sometimes spirited debate. I certainly enjoy it.

I’m happy with the content. I’m not sure what is meant by negativity.
For me it would be personal attacks, not just disagreeing.
Some subjects must lead to disagreement considering the varied aviation background of the posters.

EGPE, United Kingdom

Some negativity is present indeed, but much less than in other GA forums.

LKBU (near Prague), Czech Republic

Thank you for all your input.

My view is that the level is appropriate to the general hassle level of actually “flying somewhere internationally”. Once one learns how to deal with this stuff, life becomes a lot easier and one gets more value out of GA.

Sometimes there are bizzare or even downright corrupt procedures found at airports which need specific workarounds. Many examples from “down south” And bad work done by some aircraft maintenance companies. Is it wrong to discuss these? It would be a travesty of free speech if one could not. If we carried advertising then in general one could not do so.

But there will be scenarios where the negativity can be seen as excessive: if you rarely if ever “fly somewhere internationally”. This is country dependent, with the fraction of international flights varying hugely across Europe. We’ve done this before in various threads and e.g. around 93% of French pilots do not have ELP and thus cannot fly across their border, and these may see EuroGA as excessively negative. And indeed when one flies around and meets other pilots, the overwhelming majority is from “English as an easy 2nd language” countries. But we do have lots of other topics on general GA knowledge, so clearly the perception is hard to shake off.

The other area where excessive negativity might be perceived is where almost nobody owns their plane i.e. in countries where most GA is confined to aeroclubs. The flyers are then not involved in ownership and the “fun and games” there. These will also correlate to few people flying far or internationally; that is not generally encouraged on the renting scene for obvious business reasons. This was one of the big eye-openers when I was getting into GA and started reading US sites: almost nobody there was renting so it was much more hands-on.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Fernando wrote:

I lost count of how many pilots told me “you can’t do that”. One even filed a complaint which was dismissed by the CAA.

Sadly there is a significant “can’t do” attitude in the UK. Many pilots gold plate stuff to an extent the regulator gets envious!

Andreas IOM

Peter wrote:

thus cannot fly across their border

Flying abroad also depends on flying conditions (weather, number and diversity of places to go, etc.).

E.g. living in France (or Germany or Italy) opens numerous possibilities to fly to local fields (nearby or sometimes quite distant) within same country, dealing with your own ATC (knowing local advantages and limitations) and still flying to interesting place and very often in nice weather at altitude of your choice.

When flying e.g. in Croatia you’re limited to 10 or so airports out of 4 are quite GA unfriendly and additional 2 become like that during summer. So the only logical choice is to fly abroad after you have flown zillion times to LDLO and LDSB.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia

Peter wrote:

This was one of the big eye-openers when I was getting into GA and started reading US sites: almost nobody there was renting so it was much more hands-on.

Well. No other GA population in the entire world are so exclusively bound to their own country regard to flying as Americans. Maybe Australians ? Also, the UL and experimental scene in Europe is very different from the “renting GA” scene. For UL, almost everybody own their own plane, simply because the running costs are a small fraction in comparison, and much less bureaucracy (either old fashion or new digital). In fact, there are surprisingly many who have more than one plane, and it’s often different types (one UL, one experimental or certified even). I would say no one knows what hands-on even mean before having an UL or experimental in the hangar.

I also think “flying international” is a bit of a UK thing. It’s not something we talk about as a “thing” very often, we just do it, business as usual. Sweden, Denmark, Germany mostly, and rental planes makes no difference in this respect. At most it is some reminders before the flying season, same as for winter flying, flying in the mountains, flying in bad weather etc. Flying across the Atlantic and similar is definitely a “thing” though

For me, hands on is perhaps 75% of it. Building experimentals, fixing ULs (the Rotax engine for the most of it). The rest is instructing, flying aerobatics, out in the “bush” and lately also competitions (old school navigation), and a larger trip every now and then. I think perhaps that flying in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Finland is as easy as it gets, Sweden in particular perhaps due to nice GA fields, a good infrastructure of fuel and no customs nonsense like we have in Norway. By the looks of it, I think the same can be said about French speakers flying in France. It looks like a very nice place to fly, if you can speak French only.

To be perfectly honest here, I think perhaps that an impression of negativity stems from a narrow field of experience from the admin on this site. The focus tends to be what is difficult about flying in Europe, and not what is nice/easy about flying in Europe. Flying in an airline fashion to get to Greece is best done in the back of a B-737 nipping to a Whiskey I think most active GA pilots think the same way. We focus on the flying experience rather than the transport aspects. Having fun with planes, and fun with planes in the air is what it’s all about. Some like to travel far distances. The funny thing is that there are 3 brand new Sharks (ULs) coming in short order just here in the region. They all could have purchased very nice certified planes for the same amount of money, but all in all, all three found out that a Shark would be the best choice for travelling, owning, maintaining.

Some like this, some like that, some like a bit of several things. It’s just the way it is. I think though, that broader experience in general is a good thing. Just thinking out loud, I wonder what this site would be like if the admin also had an UL and/or experimental in the hangar The UL scene in Europe is a good thing, nice and pleasant for most of it, and lots of freedom. In fact not that different than what the certified private GA scene was 30-40 years ago. Today the certified scene has:

  • Shrunk
  • Become too expensive for most people
  • Become overly “airline-ish” in a destructive manner, mostly because the airline scene has become much more procedural/corporate with focus on efficiency, safety and “seriousness”, which really has no place in private GA (but it is obviously good for airline safety and airline passengers)

Negativity on EuroGA, I really don’t think so. But EuroGA is indeed colored by the experience and focus of the admin. That experience does not reflect the “usual” experience among most active GA pilots in Europe. The “usual” experience is much broader and not as hooked to one single aspect of GA. I think in general it is also more positive due to more focus on other positive aspects. Private GA is a wide field.

Last Edited by LeSving at 16 Jan 11:09
The elephant is the circulation
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top