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P2 with no toe brakes - Training/Testing - UK

A question for the wise instructors/examiners or anyone who has been in the same position.

We are about to buy a group aircraft and have a choice of two aircraft. One of the two has an ‘on condition’ engine and also no toe brakes on the P2 side.

We believe it is possible to use the ‘on condition’ aircraft for training for UK National ratings, specifically IR(R) which are couple of the group are interested in, however we are not sure if the lack of P2 toe brakes would be an issue for either training or ‘testing’/exam.

Can anyone shed any light here?

EGBP, United Kingdom

I think this is regulated on a CAA level.

The German LBA has rules on what they consider an aircraft fufilling the conditions of a training aircraft. Ask „your“ CAA.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

I know of one case where an instructor did not have brakes and the aircraft chewed up a van.

I think you are answering your own question:)

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

boscomantico wrote:

I think this is regulated on a CAA level.

The German LBA has rules on what they consider an aircraft fufilling the conditions of a training aircraft. Ask „your“ CAA.

Indeed… The reason I ask here is someone may have been in the same position in the UK. Not sure how quickly the LBA respond to ‘non-standard’ questions, but in the UK it is likely to be a month and we’d like to/need to make the decision a little faster than this.

EGBP, United Kingdom

I learned how to fly in a Luscombe with pilot only heel brakes. Notwithstanding any regulatory issue what we did was a lot of taxiing and ground maneuvering prior to anything else. It was manageable, especially given that my cost for operating the plane was very little.

I used to know an FI who ended up in a ditch doing this. Various problems followed…

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The issue with tailwheel airplanes is that using the brakes hard when that ditch looms ahead is almost as likely to result in an accident as not using them. The lesson is often not to use the brakes, meaning initiating a harmless low speed ground loop versus a nose over. We did some of that before I ever took off in my own plane. It was valuable stuff, and I’m afraid when people start talking about aircraft ground handling, instructor side brakes etc as though it were a discussion on Joe’s Driving School, my eyes glaze over.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 30 Jun 18:12

@Silvaire you are correct, I also have given instruction without brakes on tailwheel vintage aircraft. Generally on an old Piper ragwing the brakes operate by appointment in any case.

Standard final check is ensuring the pilot receiving dual has his heels or toes off the brakes.

BTW the ground handling accident I referred to was in a piston nose wheel twin – quite an expensive and careless incident.

Last Edited by RobertL18C at 30 Jun 18:27
Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

Thanks all. I’ll head to over ‘Maintenance’ for “how much to retrofit P2 toes brakes on a TB10”

EGBP, United Kingdom

There are many aircraft that are flown without breaks, TB10 is probably not one of them

I do not see the issue of having none for FI training a PPL owner in his aircraft but it will be an issue for exams
For initial PPL training guaranteed it will be a disaster
For IR(R) it should be ok-ish, one is expected to land in 2km runways? not their 400m home base?

As rule of thumb, if you think you will need too much breaks for takeoff/landing (or too much of them against/power when taxi) one day it will blow up on the face even when they are working…

Last Edited by Ibra at 30 Jun 20:30
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
12 Posts
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