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If you were doing it all again....

For the price of one hour in a decent IR tourer they take me and my familiy and all our luggage across Europe and back.

If that’s the criteria we can all sell our airplanes :-)

OK, that makes (a little) more sense. I instruct (and received instruction) in a commercial flying school and we don’t teach or ever taught gliding approaches, except for the practise forced landing. Mainly because most of our students will go on and get their IR and CPL and will never fly things that glide on final

That’s opinion too, but what can you do when the chief of your flying school one day decides that this is the way to do it? And they do ATPL training!

Last Edited by Flyer59 at 23 Feb 15:56

I’d do the PPL with an older former military type of instructor in the USA. I’ve later flown with a couple of those – and these were the gyus who showed my what hand flying an airplane really means.

A good friend is one of those, and I learn more about flying from him now than anybody else. He has about 50 years experience in everything from Navy flying boats to Zlins to F4 Phantoms to L1011s. It’s amazing what that can add to a lesson, although his ‘lessons’ are informal now because although he was an instructor in T-28s and a civilian instructor he hasn’t kept that ticket current for 40 years – he used to teach for extra money as a kid. He’s still as sharp as they come though and aerobats his RV-8 several times a week.

I learned to fly in my own tailwheel aircraft, for $20/hr in fuel (making time unimportant), and would do it again. It wasn’t always the most direct way to learn what I needed to learn, but it led me indirectly to people who could teach me far more than I needed to learn (if that makes sense). I assume that if you play enough games you can still do that in Europe, and if so I’d recommend it.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 23 Feb 15:56

If that’s the criteria we can all sell our airplanes :-)

That’s one of the reason I sold the shares I had. Far too expensive compared to all other costs in daily life. And this is also what 80% of the PPL students discover after they get their license (as Peter wrote in his initial posting).

EDDS - Stuttgart

I have been very lucky as I only recall one training outfit which was poor, and this covers training and re validations in many locations: the USA (West Coast, Chicago and East Coast), Canada, UK, South America and Ireland.

The training has gone from grass roots to advanced.

Aircraft going tech, and looking well lived in, is a potential frustration – but it raises your risk awareness!

If I had to do it again i might have tried to get some gliding time as a way to get my hour building expense for the CPL down, and build my skills.

On the glide approach this is still part of the PTS for the PPL SE and CPL SE; both FAA and EASA.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

What would I do differently?

First and foremost, emigrate to the USA as I should have done when I had the chance. It’s simply a different world, has its share of problems but in aviation terms, it is really the land of aviation. I am still considering doing just that after I retire…

But looking back at my own experiences here, I’d have to say not much where choice of schools and people are concerned.

- I did my PPL with an experienced CPL/IR pilot whose main job was taxi pilot in a King Air. Only ever dealt with im, had my PPL theory with him as well and passed my PPL checkride after 35 hours. The next flight I did was in my own Cessna 150.
- I did my CPL/IR with a true professional, former Biz Jet pilot who ran his own outfit. Highly competent and a good teacher. What I would do differently today is to wait until I have both the flight time and cash to do it in one go, rather than dragging it out over 2 years.

What I definitly would not do again is letting my license and ratings lapse as I thought I’d be working for that airline with it’s reduced fare travel for the rest of my career. Well, I thik Swissair’s bancruptcy caught other people on the wrong foot too…

Very recently: I still am a bit shell shocked at the cost of upgrading my trusty Mooney to IFR. In theory at least, I could have sold it and bought another plane with the necessary equipment. That lasted until this afternoon, when I met a guy who has such a plane. IFR certified, KFC150 equipped and so on. He was shell shocked on the receipt of the offer for installing a new Garmin suite in order to STAY IFR certified (he has no 8.33 and only a basic GPS so far). I could hardly believe it, but getting those 2 GTN’s installed plus some other things which need to be done will set him back by more money than I just shelled out. So again, I am quite happy with my choice to buy a well equipped old airplane and upgrading it to what I want.

What I need to do is fly much more. I will do so this year,that is my pledge, primarily getting my IR back and beside that do smaller realistic trips often rather than planning stuff which needs a weather jackpot to come true.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

For the price of one hour in a decent IR tourer they take me and my familiy and all our luggage across Europe and back.

What in your view is a decent IR tourer? As someone who has to fly Air Berlin and others quite regularly, I would thing this statement needs some clarification. It may well be the case if you book several weeks ahead and get those promotional fares, but try just to move 3-4 people say from Zurich to Salzburg and back the same day. You may well find that the airplane is cheaper.

Looking at the tarifs for the said flight for tomorrow or the day after, I get a price of 368 Euros per person. For two people that is 736 Euros, for 3 people that is 1104 Euros.

Add to that that they only fly once per day, in the afternoon, so you’d have to go by Star Alliance, for a same day flight you get 410 Euros per person. Each trip however takes 3 hours with a stop in Frankfurt or Vienna.

If I fly ZRH-SZG-ZRH with my Mooney, it will take about 1-20 per way, so about 2:40 flight time, at current prices that is CHF 600.-, plus about 120.- landing fees, 720-750.- for the full trip. That is 375.- for 2 people or 250.- for 3. More expensive? I don’t think so. I can either fly off at 8:00 and am there at 09:20 (as opposed to 10:55 with Lufthansa) or if I only need to be there at 11 am depart leasurely at 9:30 or so. And if you fly from a less expensive airport, you can save even more.

Actually, it is exactly trips like that where small airplanes can be cheaper than the airlines, particularly if you fly with the family or 1-2 passengers.

That’s one of the reason I sold the shares I had. Far too expensive compared to all other costs in daily life. And this is also what 80% of the PPL students discover after they get their license (as Peter wrote in his initial posting).

Well, that is something no flight school will teach you, so it is up to forums and experiences people to do so. Yes, flying is expensive but it depends strongly what you want to do and how. I would think that if what you want to use the plane for are family visits and stuff like that in a radius of up to 2 hours around your homebase, you will find that the only way to get much cheaper is to drive (in the case above 4 hours per way at least, making it not very pleasurable as a one day trip) or take the train (which takes even longer).

On longer trips and if you are fixed enough that you can book a month ahead, this may be different. Also of course, the family needs to realize that flights can get cancelled quite often due to weather, but then the car is still the alternative.

For you, it may well have been the best solution to sell up and stop flying for your own pleasure, as you fly professionally as I understand you still get enough flying done. For us non professionals, it looks different.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

For you, it may well have been the best solution to sell up and stop flying for your own pleasure, as you fly professionally as I understand you still get enough flying done. For us non professionals, it looks different.

It surely looks different to me. I don’t really enjoy doing paid work all that much, simply because it inevitably involves doing what others want, when they want, even if its otherwise enjoyable. I decided early to put work and hobbies mostly in separate boxes and make sure my work could pay for hobbies doing what I want, when I want. I also learned to make mutually beneficial contacts outside of work when possible, to make hobbies more economical. Enthusiasm and a positive attitude seem to make that happen. In my experience that’s no different no matter where you are in the world.

I like to own stuff for a long time, and probably wouldn’t have become involved in flying without owning what I flew. Today (more than a decade later) I got logbooks back, with annual inspection entries made. The logs and a new 337 also show an STC’d fuel flow totalizer installation that I am excited to test. This year I also scrubbed the oil film out of the tail boom, I believe a remnant from the 70s when a smoke oil tank was installed for display work. Now it looks like new, the oil film stopped any corrosion. Maybe I should have left it for that reason but its all epoxy primed too. During the week I’ll reinstall the interior and the work will be done. Roughly $1400 parts and labor this year and I’m having fun. To me that’s how to “do it”. When I was getting my Private Certificate it was the same, I studied the plane by working on it between flights and pretty soon I knew it well. We’re all different in our motivations and abilities but its sure fun for me to own a plane in which I continue to learn, and accordingly I’ve arranged my life to afford owning aircraft.

The main thing I woud have done differently is to buy a first plane with 85 HP instead of 65 HP, for more high DA climb and more practicality from Day 1.

Air Berlin has its place BTW, notably saving me over $500 or €440 compared with Lufthansa on a single trip later this year. I couldn’t fly my plane half way around the world anyway

Last Edited by Silvaire at 24 Feb 05:49

Mooney Driver,

do these numbers include maintenance, insurance, your new avionics, the hangar, repairs, avionics updates, maps, subscriptions plus the extra cost the flight will create like taxis?

I doubt it.

What in your view is a decent IR tourer?

For me, that would be something that enables travel across Europe (mountains and sea included) in relative safety and (relative) comfort on 350 days per year. Europe is not that big, so speed would actually not be all that important. One of the aircraft I once co-owned was a Pa44 Seminole. This came close, but lack of turbocharging made crossing the Alps difficult and total lack of de-icing combined with low tolerance for ice took away at least 50 of those 350 days. Today this thing would cost around 500 Euros per hour to operate privately (half of that figure for AVGAS alone) and at an average of 130KT would really not deliver good value for money.

Looking at the tarifs for the said flight for tomorrow or the day after, I get a price of 368 Euros per person. For two people that is 736 Euros, for 3 people that is 1104 Euros.

Yes, of course. But this is the business model of the low-cost carriers. They have to recover their losses from the cheap tickets with expensive fares for last-minute travellers. If I look at Peter’s 2015 calendar on this forum (http://www.euroga.org/forums/trips-airports/3569-some-dates-for-your-diary-for-2015) I am pretty sure that I could get to all those destinations (Friedrichshafen excluded, but maninly because they dumped the scheduled Stuttgart-Friedrichshafen service…) together with wife&son for the price of one hour in my ex Seminole. Booking now, end of February. (*)

For you, it may well have been the best solution to sell up and stop flying for your own pleasure, as you fly professionally as I understand you still get enough flying done. For us non professionals, it looks different.

Been there, done it, so to say. I only started flying full-time professionally (actually I’m on a part-time contract) at age 45. Until then, I was earning my money as an aerospace engineer, dreaming of flying the things I helped to develop… One day I sat down and did my accounting and came to the conclusion “Am I stupid or what? Burning the net income of a whole month on a single Saturday afternoon in a 35 year old spamcan when I could actually get paid to fly something decent instead!”
Coming back to the original question “If you were doing it all again…” my answer would be: Go the commercial route ten years earlier than I actually did.

  • Out of curiosity, I looked up the Prague weekend. This would cost 750 Euros with Germanwings for three adults all included if booked today. With a hired IFR capable Pa28 (typical hourly rental cost 300-350 Euros at my base) I would have to pay in excess of 1000 Euros for the flying alone and maybe another 300-500 Euros for landing and three days parking plus roundabout 150 Euros for landing back home.
Last Edited by what_next at 24 Feb 08:17
EDDS - Stuttgart

I guess I was lucky…

For me the whole PPL training process was 99% frustration.

… because mine was the opposite. The only frustration I ever had was when I was having a bad day. I enjoyed every minute of my instruction, and didn’t feel like a single session was a waste of time.

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