Interesting discussion on the PA46 forums regarding risk and experience. In it we discussed ice. Pilots who have flown commercial or other deiced aircraft tend to be a bit calmer about ice even in non-deiced aircraft.
Interested in views. I have to say that having not turned on deicing frequently when accreting a small amount of ice I do tend to be a bit calmer. Usually the ice is just not that bad. Easy to say of course when you know you can get rid of most of it but still.
But as an instructor I can’t see how you can teach anything other than ice is bad, stay out and if you get in it, get out ASAP. You can’t say use your judgement as the student has very little of that.
I think it is not overdone. The problem is that although most or at least many times it is only "a little)..you never know when it will hit you real hard. And then it will threaten your life within moments. Looks at the TBM rash in New Jersey … it’s scary how quickly these things can happen.
I don’t feel like flying in icing conditions anyway. I have TKS, but I hope I’ll never need it.
Last winter I went up on a grim day to do some IMC training, i.e. planend a flight that I knew would be 80pct in IMC just for the sake of training. I also knew that 0c was around 3-3500ft, so plenty of IMC down tot he 1500ft ceiling. During the flight (roundtrip), I deliberatery climbed to 4000 to get some icing experience. I wanted to see how quickly it would build up, peformance impact, etc etc. I’ve seen icing during my initial IMC training, but that is a few years ago. I build up around 0.5cm before decending back down and did it a few times.
Long story short, after landing I was casually talking to one of the local instructors while refueling and he was schocked that I had 1) planned an trip in known IMC, IMC ratings are for emergencies only, and 2) had deliberately tried to pick up ice.
People’s attitude to risk is different, but I felt completely safe. My trip may have made me more comfortable with IMC and icing, hence more likely to myself into trouble, but I would argue that experiencing ice makes me more aware of it’s potential presence – I’m less likely to forget the ice check in IMC.
Alex, as I understand the TBM crash, the issue was exactly that the pilot thought that FIKI meant ALL known icing – an important take away is that all deicing has it’s limitations. Some people argue that TKS and Boots makes little difference (if it bulds up too quickly for you to get out of the place, they will not be sufficiently efficient anyway). I don’t agree and would love to have TKS, but I the point their making.
Hello!
We have already discussed this topic several times, but I am still not convinced that ice is harmless. It only ever takes one encounter with moderate to severe icing to kill you for the rest of your life… I nearly crashed once due to unforecast icing in a Seminole (no anti-ice whatsoever) and have learned my lesson. I take it seriosly, teach my students to take it serioulsy and will continue to do so regardless of what people on internet forums keep telling!
Regards,
Max
Never suggested it was harmless of course. I have had two experiences however where I was in the right seat and had i not intervened, a response to very light ice may well have ended up with CFIT. I wonder if there is a better way to train and teach a response to ice.
But as an instructor I can’t see how you can teach anything other than ice is bad, stay out and if you get in it, get out ASAP.
It hugely depends on the instructor. I was lucky and had an IR instructor with a lot of real world IFR GA experience. But these are rare…
We sometimes deliberately were flying in icing conditions, to learn “how it feels”.
I remember flying an approach and pieces of ice were coming off from the prop and banging on the wing. “Nothing to worry about”, said the instructor.
However, this same instructor did not enter IMC at all if freezing level was below MSA: “You always need to have an escape”
Since icing is a major concern while flying IFR, it should get a lot of attention during training.
The best way is to actually go flying in frozen clouds, and experience how it is: See how ice start forming on the wings and windscreen, notice the decline in airspeed, request a descent into warmer air and see the ice melting off again.
A flight in frozen clouds does not necessary mean icing. A lot of time we did not pick up any ice at all.
I learned icing is the worst in the top of clouds.
Most of my “flying mates” are VFR only, and they are always very worried about icing when joining me on a IFR flight.
I remember one guy who was constantly checking the wings in OAT +5 conditions 
The main reason you get so many diverging opinions on icing is that, in the absence of actuals (such as PIREPS) you can’t tell where it is, and how much there is. You very often have blanket forecast for icing in huge volumes where normally it will actually only be encountered in a layer or in a few convective cells. I would consider the “sub zero in cloud = icing” the most conservative forecast possible.
So yes, I would agree the likelihood of encountering it is hugely overplayed. The decision making taught by the schools is the equivalent of not flying [VFR] if PROB30 isolated thunderstorms are forecast, in otherwise perfect weather.
However, given you can’t see it before you encounter it, and that some encounters can be deadly, that precaution is justified. I tend to be in the camp of “you need an out”.
That out could be
– Warm enough below (I like at least 1000ft between the MSA and the forecast freezing level)
– Full de-icing equipment
I personally also think that seeking out icing conditions to play with it when it is safe to do so is a good idea. It is similar to instructing a PPL in IMC flight – a double edged sword; as long as you don’t become complacent and think you can do it (there is a reason an IMC course takes 20+ hours, and that people invented and pay £££ for de-icing equipment)… One moderate icing encounter will sort that complacency out, though.
Read Ernest K Gann’s excellent book “Fate is the Hunter”
Ice has killed a lot of people, including passengers on scheduled services
That out could be
– Warm enough below (I like at least 1000ft between the MSA and the forecast freezing level)
– Full de-icing equipment
No problem, if it can safely be done. On a sunny spring day with more than 10 degrees Celsius on the ground I will happily fly into a cloud at FL70 with a student, showing him how quickly ice can form on an unprotected airframe. But on a day like today? Late November layered overcast, ground temperatures between -5 and +5 degrees C I have absolutely no business in or even near an aircraft with no de-icing equipment.
With ice it is very hard to judge what is “safe”. I do not agree that it is a good idea to deliberately climb into icing conditions “for training”. With every airplane not approved for FIKI it is illegal too, and for good reason in my judgement.
It’s not only the horrible TBM crash, read the files of the COMAIR crash in Buffalo and of AmericanEagle, Roselawn near Chicago. And those were FIKI AIRLINERS. No chance for recovery.
The biggest problem is that the airplane might “snap” all of a sudden and might not be recoverable. In the Cirrus you’d still have the chute – but I won’t need it because I will never fly into icing conditions knowingly. I find that (sorry) CRAZY!
