VFR into IMC with an IR

Well that explains how an IR pilot would fly a perfectly capable IFR aircraft in the ground? flying in cumulusgranite is illegal and has far more serious consequences than legal cloud flying in Golf by IFR pilots (it’s only the narrow scope of those equipped & properly rated, including PBN if GPS is used), of course you need to call FIS to file flight plans, get SAR as service, or join airspace for separation, but no hurry, I may do that that after 30min of IMC above MSA or when I need airspace join but it’s not worth it for 1min of cruise, priority is to fly & navigate, YMMV

Some countries have Echo base bellow IFR MSA by construction of their airspace (same as if you are flying 140kts aircraft you can’t cruise VFR under AMS without 1500ft agl cloud base, it’s IMC all the way to Class A), add to this that most VFR only pilots have no clue what Echo vs Golf means (load of IFR pilots as well, as they never carried VFR chart that show them or never flown outside “ATC system”), let alone know what VMC weather minima are for Golf vs Echo? so I am not surprised the message is to stay a hell from clouds and VFR/IFR switch will automatically require ATC clearances: if they can’t recognize cloud shape or never seen Golf in the past, then 99% they are “IFR in controlled Echo airspace” already…on that I really agree: if you have no clue if you are in Golf or Echo? you will need to remain Echo VMC (1.5km & 1kft from clouds on 5km visibility) until you are explicitly cleared to IFR by ATC, it’s serious, IR rated or not !!

The other thing to keep in mind is NORDO in Golf, if you decide to IFR in Golf you may stay like that forever: it does not entitle you to controlled airspace or controlled aerodrome, some people think this is trivial, I don’t, I think you need a solid plan…

dutch_flyer wrote:

I guess my concern stems from my US flying roots, where this is definitely a no go

Even in the US, I would be surprised if you need clearance or separation for IFR in Golf uncontrolled airspace under Part91? do you have a reference? (I think it’s “radio contact only” in the rare places where Golf goes +14kft ?): I am sure there is some US airline pilot who flies SID/STAR+Alpha with 30 years of career in B777 and 20kh IFR who is scratching his head on what I just said (also thinks it’s reckless for IFR GA to fly in Golf clouds wing level on safe altitude with flip state of mind, why they can’t go into the ground? it’s safer ), it’s the other kind of “pilot profile” who does not know the difference between Echo & Golf, he never flew in Golf except bellow 700ft agl

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.173

In US, when flying VFR, I did not know the difference between Delta and Golf, let alone Echo which is not well shown on the map, I was flying any heading or altitude I wish, full of doubts I dully complied with 8km/1kft from clouds as I had no clue what speed I was flying and what airspace…I did notice Charlie & Bravo when reading the map, they were more serious, you need more than just “N123, with you & roger”

PS: it’s the problem of being taught to fly IFR in one place and flying IFR in another (place = country, airport, region…), they may not have the same rules (although I really doubt it, all countries operate along ICAO standard and Part91 = NCO), or different airspace structure air traffic and aerodrome procedures (yes it’s different) but two things remain exactly the same: terrain & clouds, one is hard the other is soft !

boscomantico wrote:

However, one isn’t bound by that. Nothing prevents a pilot from changing plans during flight (just like changing destinations, for example)

Unless you are in Germany, where you can get fined for planning (but not flying) an IFR flight through an active restricted area… so you better get that initial plan right!

Let’s face it flying in clouds/IMC without some sort of training is a bit risky.
But the OP had an IR so he had the training.
The event he was explaining, evolved. Perhaps a little overconfidence to carry on bearing in mind he had the skills.
But doubt was there, because of regulation and instruction.
He perhaps should have turned back at the first signs that he would enter cloud. But the mitigating factor was that he thought the cloud wasn’t going to last and he did have an IR
Regulation said he couldn’t climb above where he would be perfectly safe because it was class A. Could he get a pop up clearance into class A?
Was the mindset there to abandon all thoughts of of VFR and switch to IFR. They are different mindsets.
Or should he do what he had been taught and turn back, and was that really an option by the time he decided to do it.
I’m sure, from experience , all these things started to clog up his brain, and analysis and decision making were becoming much more difficult.
I would tend to agree with Ibra, ATC is your friend. Stabilise the aircraft and trajectory and phone a friend ie ATC, tell them your position and your capabilities. You’ll be surprised how quickly your confidence and decision making abilities return. Just my 2c

@Cobalt: whatever you write about Germany, it is “half-knowledge” at best. That problem, which was llimited to one particular ED-R, has been resolved quite a while ago now.

Also, the context of the discussion was uncontrolled flights, not controlled ones, which all IFR flights in Germany are. On a controlled flight, you obviously can’ just change plans without a clearance, as I wrote above.

boscomantico wrote:

That problem, which was llimited to one particular ED-R, has been resolved quite a while ago now.

The issue here is not that the ED-R was not checked by IFPS (and now is), but that
- the DFS felt it was necessary to report the pilot for filing a route through it
- the authority then felt it was necessary to issue a fine.

The fine was minimal, but it creates a culture of antagonism that is not helpful

Germany is somewhere in middle of the road to the practical transition to IFR. Assuming you are on FIS, you can announce that you have difficulty to maintain VMC and would like an IFR clearance, you will get a hand-over to the IFR sector and that should sort you out.

But you have just admitted to DFS that you have broken the law (if you are no longer in IMC) or that you WILL break the law (because DFS does not issue IFR clearances below MRVA so you will climb through class under VFR in IMC). And since DFS on occasion prosecutes that or has prosecuted at least once a crew for “insufficient flight preparation” in such circumstances.

So in the mind of many a pilot the DFS is not their friend. And the DFS has only itself to blame for that. The DFS has in the past prosecuted people for insufficient flight preparation because they had to ask for an IFR clearance (although in that instance because they felt the crew was taking the proverbial to get around slots), and the LBA and/or DFS are prosecuting people for low approach/go-around, non adherence to noise abatement routes, and some state NAAs used to prosecute for non-adherence to the published circuit.

Of course it is not a good decision to continue scud running into danger – but an ATC provider percieved as hostile is contributing to the poor mindset that can lead to bad decisions.

Cobalt wrote:

The German DFS prosecuted pilots for inadequate pre-flight planning after asking for an IFR clearance after unable to maintain VMC.

AFAIK, the problem is not pilots asking for pop-up IFR clearances when unable to maintain VMC, but pilots planning a VFR flight when it is obvious from the weather info that IMC enroute is to be expected. (IIRC in one case it was even suspected that the pop-up IFR is was the pilot’s intention from the start.)

Flying IFR does not mean ‘under an IFR flight plan’ or ‘ATC is watching you’. It means ‘flying by use of instruments’ instead of looking out of the window, and you can do that in IMC or in VMC, doesn’t matter. And you can either do it IMC, or you cannot, either because you really don’t know how to do it (like a typical VFR rated pilot), or because you are too slow switching over (in your mind, and in your cockpit, there’s so much to do to safely fly in IMC, not just instrument looky looky).

But please: flying into bad wheather is not some higher force striking upon you or some bad fate. It is insufficient preparation.

I agree with Jacko from Scotland. I find this ‘inadvertant flight into IMC’ storyline hard to accept. If you look out the window and the shit hits the fan, and if you have done a minimum wheather briefing, you know exactly what will happen. You then either focus on your instruments early enough and continue the flight or turn around, or you don’t. If you don’t, because you either think you have to absolutely get there no matter what, or because you don’t want it to happen (denial) or you are not proficient, you end up falling out of the sky eventually.

This is what kills IFR rated pilots as well as non-IFR rated pilots: Accepting that the flight might end up in IMC without properly preparing for that, or getting into increasingly worse conditions without proper rules to divert the flight (like the guy ending up in the mountain near Zell am See).

call ATC, explain the situation, and ask for a clearance if continuing IFR to the destination is a reasonable option

I don’t think that would help ATC help you: to them without FPL you are “VFR in Golf”, now you are asking them to clear you IFR to destination fully in airspace in some new IFR route generated in IFPS (with all slot management, separation, squawks, coordinations)? or to clear you IFR to destination outside controlled airspace along your planned route without separation?

Good luck with both: you may have some luck with 1/ but surely not with 2/ just ask any Dutch AMS Alpha ATC if they give IFR clearances for cruising in Golf? (it’s PIC who decides flying weather & rules in Golf, it’s the case for every country on earth, but have a chat with the guys running AMS TWR if they offer IFR clearances or IFR instructions in Golf but I really doubt it)

The best ATC can offer in these scenarios is climb into Alpha first on your own separation 1000ft above it’s base to 2500ft amsl or even to radar altitude, then vectors/direct to nearest ILS/RNP on the airport they control with fire truck lined up on the runway, they won’t trust the pilot will make it to destination with such bad weather planning and urgent ad-hoc need for airspace and separation, better get the pilot on the ground before he kills himself in clouds or terrain you can fly IFR to destination on IFPS I-FPL 1h latter fully in airspace if you wish: possible if you have an IR & aircraft IFR certified…

Again in the order,
- climb to safe altitude or 180 if climb in airspace
- set autopilot, navigate and check fuel (fuel doubles as you enter IMC)
- have 30min tea & biscuits watch for airspace (listen to few ATIS)
- 30min later call FIS to file open & join (if still listening to ATIS)
- declare mayday if I need airspace and Cat2 ILS

The latter may happen one day: say I enter “inadvertent VFR in IMC” with clouds everywhere, airspace everywhere, 550m RVR on every runway, mountains everywhere, no sea around and with barely 30min legal VFR fuel reserve and no alternates, s**t happens and it’s so bad that even the amateur IFR cloud-break MDH* (say 500ft above highest obstacle in 25nm) won’t save the show, unlike “VFR scud runners” you won’t hit terrain at that MDH !