Silvaire wrote:
He mentioned returning to Denmark at some point after early retirement, when he’s saved enough that he doesn’t have to care too much about what income-level caste others think he’s in, or should be in
So he’s made his fortune in the US but the moment he retires it’s home to momma.
Unfortunately he will be in for a rude surprise. I know many, not from Denmark in particular, but many many people with roots outside the country which they choose to live in because of better economic possibilities. Very few however have accepted their economical home as their spiritual home (for the lack of a better word) and many of them wish to go “home” when they retire.
Well, that doesn’t work all that well most of the time. In what they call home nobody is waiting for them. They are strangers in their own country and there will be a lot of animosity and envy. While many do it also because living is much cheaper there, this would not be the case in Denmark… but I’ve seen quite a few who spent their lives working their backs off here to afford houses in the old countries they wished to live in once retired, instead of investing in a good home where they are now.
First of all, you live a lot longer in the country you work. I would like my creature comforts there, not in an elusive post retirement shangri-la. All your friends, your circle of social interaction is in the place you work, at home people you knew have either moved on themselfs or won’t care much if you come back after 40 years of absence. Quite a few sell up at a tremendous loss and come back to their work country, where they know people and are integrated.
The grass is always greener. But if you’ve found the green grass, it may well be worth haniging around.
I agree, you “can’t go back” as the saying goes and I wouldn’t try. In the case of my Danish friend, I suspect it’s the call of a growing grandkid that is making him (or more precisely his wife) think of returning some day. His US based family has lots of ‘support’ from the in laws. Whether it will actually happen is another issue, as he knows they’d continue to be better off here in most other ways and can visit Denmark regularly anyway… they’ll be there again in a couple of weeks.
This so much depends on the detail of why and how.
The typical Brit scenario has been: sell your house in the UK, for say 200k, buy a palace in Spain, or a barn for conversion in France, for 50k, and live off the remaining 150k. Especially if you drink a lot of alcohol (the preferred lifestyle of Brits moving to Spain) then Spain is much cheaper to live than the UK.
Then over the years you discover problems:
So they move back to the UK, for the free and unlimited NHS treatment, and to be with old friends (those who are still alive). But that works only if you have enough money left, because the house you sold for 200k is now going for 800k… so you either sold a house for 800k and bought one for 200k (like my ex neighbours did in 2002; while they could have always come back, they actually both died in Spain, and afaict quite happy until the end), or you will live in quite a poor way, which is rather crap with English winters 
A bit of a caricature but it probably describes fairly well those for whom it didn’t work out. I think for the majority it did work out ok; in Spain so many live on large estates full of Brits so they avoid the lack of community acceptance. In France, isolation is a much bigger risk, but ISTM that those who did France were ones with more money and better planning, and I think the majority could come back to the UK if they wanted to.
Peter wrote:
A bit of a caricature but it probably describes fairly well those for whom it didn’t work out. I think for the majority it did work out ok; in Spain so many live on large estates full of Brits so they avoid the lack of community acceptance.
Exactly. There are also quite a few in BG now. Lots of british cars on the market too, which makes driving interesting. I know quite a few there.
It appears that living in Spain is something which worked very well for quite a few Brits. Tom Sharpe spent his time on the Costa Brava and died there.
As for medical care, I don’t know about Continental Spain, but on the Canaries there are some quite large hospitals which have a good rep. I have friends who emigrated from Switzerland to GC and they are more than happy. They do get frequent visits from friends who do vaccations in the canaries and the community they live in has loads of Germans and Swiss.
As the ultimate legend of people who got hit by the grass is greener syndrome stands the couple who allegedly emigrated to the Falkland Islands in 1980 because they were scared of the UK being ravaged by WWIII. Never found out if it’s true but it figures. I know quite a few who had a merry time in former Yugoslavia when it disintegrated…
Peter described the situation as it used to be. The current situation in Mallorca is that real estate prices have gone through the roof, so the scenario of selling a place in the UK and buying a ‘palace’ here generally does not exist anymore. Maybe some chance still in mainland Spain. It’s mainly wealthy Europeans and Russians etc who want a holiday place also serving as a possible COVID refuge that has driven the increase.
For the locals it’s a mixed blessing. Positive: it provides capital and employment in the construction and service industry. Negative: the locals, in particular youngsters, cannot afford to buy a home. In spite of the low interest rate, the demands for a loan are high. It’s extra frustrating for them to see lovely places being empty for a large part of the year..
As to health care, I would say that Spain is at the European level. There is a dual system of public and private care, both at a high level with doctors usually speaking good English. No waiting lists in the private care sector. Capacity-wise also quite good, because it seems to be dimensioned for a large influx of tourism in summer. Even in times of COVID spikes, ICU occupation never reached anything near a critical level. Of course one has to be able to afford private health care. Pensionados will not have access to the public system.
As to cost of living, the difference between Spain and the rest of Europe isn’t all that big, if any, for the popular destinations. I’d even say that Mallorca can be more expensive than some EU countries. Interesting to see an enormous difference within the country. Almost all of the inland part of Spain is so much cheaper, as if a completely different country. I experienced a different attitude to visitors too. In the cities on the Northern coast you feel more like a guest, in contrast to some of the popular places where gringos only seem to serve to fill the pockets of the locals.
I don’t think the Brits who ended up having to move home did so because of sub-standard healthcare. Perhaps because they perceived it as such or because they had trouble navigating it due lack of FraLP / EspLP, but it’s probably better than the NHS.
Mainland Spain was more of a turnkey solution for the ordinary Brit. France required a bit more nous and desire to integrate, and the Spanish islands required more money.
My only data point is my ex’s aunt and uncle who decamped to a tiny village somewhere near Angouleme LFBU in the early 2000s. They are very happy and completely integrated in their community – I doubt they will ever return, despite her French still not being very good. His is now fluent. To the best of my knowledge they are making excellent use of the French healthcare system: hips, eyes, etc. We did a week there three times, twice by GA and once by car. It was idyllic and a great use of GA.
I would love to retire to rural France and it remains my aim, despite Brexit.
There are perhaps some countries you can move to and not learn the local language because English is sufficient.
I can assure you France is NOT one of those countries. You absolutely need to be able to speak and understand French to live here. I would also say that I have often come across an open anti-foreigner attitude by more than a minority of French people – especially when you are trying to deal with a problem and get a government service of some sort. Dont get me wrong, the majority of ordinary French people you come across are friendly and helpfull if you communicate in French and I do hope that I have “integrated” – my friends here are generally French – there is only one English couple I know here who we see about once a year!!
Regards, SD..
In rural France you are much more welcome as a foreigner speaking bad French than a Parisian is😁
It is good form in France to be able to say bonjour, merci, s’il vous plait with a smile.
Silvaire wrote:
That’s funny. He’s about 50 years old and hardly bitter
You just described his bitterness towards what he calls a “caste system”. I’m not sure what he means by that, but in the bigger cities you can still find remnants of the old class system, and probably also some snobbery academic circles and whatnot else. IMO stuff like that is part of every larger city, and are just people of the same “spirit” flocking together. Then you get the usual “neighbor effect” in suburbia. These things are social however, not a fabricated part of “society”, not a part of “the system”.
All this is beside the point. The point is, you are free to do whatever you want. All education is free (well, not professional pilot education except military). You can even go to other universities abroad (and the state will pay), if that is your cup of tea (which lots of students do). Now, if you chose to not use the opportunities laying in front of you, that is your choice. But it seems a bit strange to not do it, and then be sad and bitter because it keeps you at an disadvantage against those who did (if this is what he meant). Young people don’t seem to measure their success in wealth anyway, like the older generation did. It’s more about intangible stuff for them, like being happy, being independent, having fun, having some meaning in life (which increasingly seem to mean doing something for the community).
Silvaire wrote:
Working non-creatively in lockstep with a conformist society wouldn’t have worked for him, I’m sure.
Funny, because you are describing the typical American corporate structure. That doesn’t work for me either. I have have tried it (due to corporate take overs). Maybe Apple is just a good place work? Which often is the case for businesses making lots of profits. This spring, the company I’m working for was bought by this fisherman It will be interesting seeing how that pans out in the years ahead.
The number one place for Norwegians (and most retired people) is the Canary Islands. Nice climate all year round
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need has not proven to motivate productive behavior, for most places and people where it’s been tried 
It is certainly true that working for a financially successful company is better for the employee than vice versa, at least in my experience (I have worked for the same company through cycles of both and know which I prefer). My friend does seem to be happy in his work, and with how he’s pursued life in general.
