Buying a family plane (and performance calculations)

Snoopy wrote:

Who can move their “window” 2 days?

I guess one can only do that realistically if the destination is one’s own (or family/friend’s) property. And then other commitments like work are not an issue.
But when booking a hotel/house rent in advance, there’s no flexibility with the timings and hence weather does indeed become a very important concern. One would be constantly refreshing the MSLP/TAFs in the few days before the flight, living in constant stress of having to cancel the trip or looking for a plan B.

So having a high dispatch rate becomes crucial. And then things like a powerful engine (to climb to FL160+), FIKI and oxygen make sense.

Who can move their “window” 2 days?

Well, I can tell you that by doing exactly this for years I have achieved a near 100% despatch rate, with the TB20.

Obviously if you have x kids then you have to travel during school holiday time and your accommodation isn’t going to be as flexible as it would be for a couple with 0 kids who are semi retired and who can stay in any number of self catering apartments found on airb&b or booking.com.

If you have to prebook holidays a long time ahead, and need a specific type of accommodation, an airline flight is probably the only way.

GA is great for nice trips at a shorter notice.

@Mooney_Driver yes I agree things are tight in the Alps on a PPL but it’s pretty much flyable all year in the UK up to VMC ceiling & visibility minima with an IMC/IR rating & light IFR aircraft, something north of +90% dispatch rate if you can do +/-6h and 100% with +/-1 day

Of course you have strong winds, icing & thunderstorm en-route but the criteria on these are highly relative & very subjective but it’s crystal clear they are no go near mountains…

If you have time to spare travel by air :)

Ibra wrote:

but it’s pretty much flyable all year in the UK up to VMC ceiling & visibility minima with an IMC/IR rating & light IFR aircraft, something north of +90% dispatch rate if you can do +/-6h and 100% with +/-1 day

I would say that is true for most of non-alpine Europe apart from possible icing conditions in IFR coupled with high MEA in some areas which would be fine ortographically. The 70% which I quoted for non-alpine flying related to VFR and are the result of a GAFOR statistic I did a few years back. Actually, the 70% average in the non alpine regions did surprise us at the time but are probably quite accurate. 30% for the Alps were a big wake up call though, even not totally unexpected.

If you hail from a place which is far enough from the Alps so the way around them does not get excessive, those 70% no go can be reduced significantly.

Alpha_Floor wrote:

Snoopy wrote: Who can move their “window” 2 days?

I guess one can only do that realistically if the destination is one’s own (or family/friend’s) property. And then other commitments like work are not an issue.

This is indeed a huge issue for many of us who work fixed schedules, in other words who are employed rather than self-employed or otherwise very flexible. I’ve learnt the hard way that some stuff simply is too ambitious when it comes to long term pre-planning.

However, hotels e.t.c. are most of the time the least issue. I’ve done this quite a lot when travelling stand by on the airlines: We waited until the day before to see which flights were sufficiently “safe” to buy a ticket and then went to booking to check for accomodation. Usually, we found that there were increadible bargains at short notice when hotels dump prices in order to cut losses. I recall two instances: Venice, where we ended up in a nominally 700 €/night hotel right on St. Marcus square for 300 € for 3 nights and Rome where we had a place virtually opposite to the entrance of the Sixtine Chapel equally for a very low price.

Flexibility goes several ways. If you are fixed on dates, be flexible in destination, if fixed on destination, you need to be flexible on time. These also were two kinds of weather briefings we give to some pilots who will call maybe on Thursday to find out where they can fly over the weekend and take it from there.

I think some perspective needs to be maintained here.

The OP is VFR-only. His family sounds like a typical pilot’s family i.e. the wife is not interested in flying except as a way to get to some good destinations (and needs good smooth wx) while the kids will quite possibly find it good fun (and will tell all their friends that “daddy has a plane!!”) but again only in good wx.

So no use talking about de-iced planes and such.

With a “basically non flying family” you have to pick your battles, so you can deliver consistent good value, otherwise their lack of support for your main hobby will gradually erode away your desire to fly and soon you will give up. I have seen quite a few give up, under the constant pressure of “no support”. Wives also find other ways to turn the screw e.g. “now you need to be a responsible father; it is time you gave up this dangerous hobby”.

So you need to find a way to keep everyone on board.

That means flying in nice wx, and being able to reach nice destinations. But flying in nice wx will often require having a capable aircraft, because above cloud is much smoother than below, and if you want to cross the Alps safely then you need altitude.

If for some reason I was limited to VFR-only I would still like the TB20 because it is an outstanding VFR aircraft – along with lots of others of similar performance.

I am sure flying with family = nice weather at 8kft to sunny & warm destination, all VMC on top with max 10min in begin cloud layers, following coast when it’s bumpy midday and over land in beautiful late evenings

I think it’s worth taking another pilot or flying solo if one wants to do wave flying in Alps or Pyrenees, climb to FL230 for fun, punch into convective cloud with TKS instead of avoid…

The main benefit of IFR aircraft & IFR pilot is mostly panel equipment & pilot rating to fly hassle free in controlled airspace, weather capability of the typical SEP about the same as “all weather flying” in gliders, very doable but you need a way out

Peter wrote:

The OP is VFR-only.

For now.

Peter wrote:

With a “basically non flying family” you have to pick your battles, so you can deliver consistent good value, otherwise their lack of support for your main hobby will gradually erode away your desire to fly and soon you will give up

That is exactly what I am talking about a few posts earlier. If they are not on board or at least benevolent, there is no point in buying a plane, period, particularly if time off work is carefully scrutinized even without aviation.

Peter wrote:

I have seen quite a few give up, under the constant pressure of “no support”. Wives also find other ways to turn the screw e.g. “now you need to be a responsible father; it is time you gave up this dangerous hobby”.

That is a risk for people who buy a plane while being without kids and after birth of the first one the mother instincts hit and a previously happy “copilot” becomes a helicopter mum as they call them here. Not the case with the OP as he already has kids. Kind of a worst case scenario in any event. Needling or worse silent “suffering” will make any pilot’s life hell. Many give up, some divorce, both is undesirable. Hence what I’ve said before: A thing like this must be clearly discussed and made up before buying. Otherwise things tend to go massively wrong.

Peter wrote:

So you need to find a way to keep everyone on board.

Well, while the above scenarios are those which many of us have or are experiencing, thankfully there are other examples, up to the point where initially critical or scared spouses get sufficiently interested to get their license themselves, which I’d consider the jackpot result. The rest is not unlike your behaviour while driving or doing other stuff around the family: Spouses need to see a confident, calm and professional behaviour, be it in cars or particularly around airplanes. And the family time involved must not be there to satisfy only the interests of the pilot but primarily those of the family. Then they do stay on board.

And for concerned spouses who will never get easy, there is of cause the way towards an SR22 or SR20. If being scared is the primary problem, this would well be the only way to get over that, short of buying a twin. But unfortunately they are no option for the OP due to being limited to 4 people.

Yea kids usually find it way cool when dad (or mum for that matter) is a pilot, let alone when they got an airplane. And one can plant the seed early on with nice short trips with the kids (if the spouse agrees) and involving them in the process of flying and later also pre-flight stuff like planning e.t.c.

Peter wrote:

If for some reason I was limited to VFR-only I would still like the TB20 because it is an outstanding VFR aircraft – along with lots of others of similar performance.

I’ve always liked the TB20. Comfortable, very decent range and generally a well designed airplane. I’d say for a family of up to 4 it would be a very serious contender. If you only fly alone or for a family of 2 or 3, a Mooney 201 or an Arrow III will provide similar performance and range at probably slightly lower cost. On a tight budget and for mostly VFR there are Arrow II’s and of course the pre-J Mooneys. And of course there are the Bonnies, both the V and conventional variant, which are quite lovely airplanes too.

Well, the valuable advise herein is also good to a lot of us!

I’ve been a family flyer myself for the last 14 years. Family of 2+3, currently 10, 11 and 14yo, so do have some experience. Typical non-flyer wife.

I must say the experience has been great but difficult for most of what’s been said. I would again go a similar route though.

A lot of the difficulties about flying with the family also happen with a lot of stuff you could do with them. To me there is also a value in living together the effort to achieve a target: it usually makes it so much more valuable.

Having the wife bragging with friends about the improvised family four-day trip to the Alps in gorgeous wx while our friends stayed home- bound with the kids in bad wx: priceless!