RobertL18C wrote:
the Archer II with fuel at the tabs (meets your range objective) meets your mission
Not with two adults and three kids, really. Done that a few times (in times where it was legally o.k. to put two kids on one seat) and even flown to destinations about two hours away. But besides that it is not an option any more (law has changed), it would be fine like one or two times a year, but as a family member, maybe not in this constellation. But then again you do not need to buy a “family plane” for only so few trips a year.
One of the bigger Cessnas maybe yes, like 182 and up, due to the child seat in a third row (nowadays you need one seat per person on board, excluding only childs aged up to 2 years), but then again still limited. Because kids don’t stay seated two and a half hours – if they do not fall asleep. They need to move, and it’s great if they can do so. And honestly, the smallest thing that works for this (and gives enough seating flexibility and “movement area” inside) is the Comanche, being itself also a compromise – like any plane is a compromise on its own.
O.K. preferences are different. Of course you can give a child a tablet computer and let it see his favorite movies, then even the smallest seat without window is fine.
MedEwok wrote:
140 kts vs 110 kt makes a difference if you’re trying to fly a family somewhere
Yes indeed, but the Piper Six (or Cherokee Six) with fixed gear will most probably not make 140kts. I don’t know the details, haven’t flown one. But if the Lance is indicated as 150 kts True, I imagine the Six more 110 to 120 kts-ish.
@UdoR missed the three kids requirement.
@Alpha_Floor just flew a six-300 and achieved 130KTAS at 55%. The -260 should be around 5% slower (cube root of power available difference), so around 128KTAS at 65% power? 13 usgph?
On a 2 1/2 hour mission by the time you get to the airport, prepare, load, fly, land, secure, get ground transport, the efficiency gain of another 15 knots is not that much. However the Six is a very comfortable passenger aircraft, very stable, big cabin, and able to land on grass and gravel.
@MedEwok perhaps an advantage of a Cherokee Six is that your wife can choose between riding up front with you and going in the back with the kids, according to circumstance?
Being 1.92m and broad-shouldered, I think if you want to be part of a four-up adventure on a regular basis then you probably need a six-seat aeroplane. Four-seaters can take four people, but it’s cramped and you’ll be doing the W&B down to the last kg every single time. Then think about emergency egress through the single door in the four-seat Piper cabins…
Operating well within margins is relaxing because you’re not crunching the numbers for every flight. This what I like about me and my girlfriend (70kg and 53kg) in the TB10 – we can fill the fuel tanks, carry as much luggage as we like, and we don’t even have to look at the numbers – we know we’re at least 50kg (and probably a lot more) below MTOW.
Indeed Graham, I want to be able to not do the W&B down to the weight of my kids stuffed animals every time I take them with me, and @100 kg I already bring a lot more weight by myself than anticipated by designers in the 1950s and 60s…
MedEwok wrote:
Indeed Graham, I want to be able to not do the W&B down to the weight of my kids stuffed animals every time I take them with me
And then how much future-proofing? It isn’t too many years before (some) kids can weigh as much as a small adult….
Graham wrote:
It isn’t too many years before (some) kids can weigh as much as a small adult
But then again it is that age when they don’t really care about flying with the parents. They’ll stay at home!
I was like the same, to the highest grief of my father, who owned a 172, when I was young. Don’t know what went wrong, and my father was and still is flight instructor, doing a great job. But we kids did not want to go. And then again, when they reach their 16, they have their friends, leave home soon and you keep that big cabin.
May all be different in other families. But from my experience for kids in the “middle ages” say between 8 and 16 years, it is not the flying part, but the destination what the kids will be enjoying anyhow.
I do find speed is important for families because of limited endurance. A practical family limit is around 2-3 hours.
For some of the aircraft being named, the typical cruise speed difference may not sound like much, but it is important. Even though the resulting range for three hours does not change that much (by say 25%), the territory available and hence travel options (which is what family is likely to be about) with a mere 135KTS cruise could be 56% wider: which is a lot. As a reference:
TYPE CRUISE- RANGE- AREA COVERED
C172 /PA28 110KTAS-300NM – Baseline
PA32 / PA28R/ C177RG 135KTAS- 375NM- +56%
Agreed total trip time will not be so different for 300NM, maybe little over half an hour, but it is airborne times that really seems to count for them.
It may not seem much of a difference, but then 145 KTS opens a whole new world
C172 /PA28 110KTAS-300NM – Baseline
PA32 / PA28R/ C177RG 135KTAS- 375NM- +56%
TB20 145KTAS-405NM- +82%
If you then jump to more powerful birds, it really shrinks the map
C172 /PA28 110KTAS-300NM – Baseline
PA32 / PA28R/ C177RG 135KTAS- 375NM- +56%
TB20 145KTAS-405NM- +82%
PA34 /Lance/ A/B-35/36 /C210 160KTAS- 450NM- +125%
And then again for faster or turbocharged aircraft, a few extra knots open up yet another 55% additional territory for a whopping 250% increase vs the baseline PA28
C172 /PA28 110KTAS-300NM – Baseline
PA32 / PA28R/ C177RG 135KTAS- 375NM- +56%
TB20 145KTAS-405NM- +82%
PA34 /Lance/ A/B-35/36 /C210 160KTAS- 450NM- +125%
T/P-210/ A/B36TC /Baron/PA46 190KTAS-560 NM- +248%
However the overall ownership burden (excl depreciation) increases similarly (my own estimates):
C172 /PA28 Baseline
PA32 / PA28R/ C177RG +35%
TB20 +50%
PA34 /Lance/ A/B-35/36 /C210/SR22 +75%
T/P-210/ A/B36TC /Baron/PA46 +100%-200%
UdoR wrote:
But then again it is that age when they don’t really care about flying with the parents. They’ll stay at home!
Well , in the case of my (admittedly boating-) friends, what we see is they end up coming back…only with friends, so an extra seat or two helps!
I guess milage varies
@Antonio am trying to understand the % delta on your calculation? Isn’t 375/300 25%?
