As soon as practicable is stricter than same day?
IMO one leaves lots of room for interpretation, the other doesn’t.
There is a general issue with all “same day” stuff.
Think of a flight which spans midnight, or is close to midnight.
This touches on multiple aspects of aviation. One is whether the CPL cross country flight has to be done in one day. The FAA ruled it does not need to. Europe pretends it has. Certain FAA DPEs also pretend it must be. But think about it.
A reg saying “same day” is poor drafting, which is common in European aviation regs.
In the corporate world I would suggest it is common to fill out log books, including crew, on shutting down.
For as long as I remember (and acc. to FCL and the german NfL) AOC pilots aren’t required to have logbooks, the recording is done by the operator (in practice, most still kept their own logs).
In Germany you want to have your papers “in Ordnung” whatever aspect of life it concerns. I recall being severely reprimanded once in Germany some years ago (about 2010 or so, shortly after I came back to flying) when being prompted to show my paper flight log books after landing at their C office and I had not yet entered the flight to that destination. A good 15 minutes of massive threats to call the LBA and stop me fom continuing the flight due to fraud e.t.c. After that, I was prompted to enter the flight right there and then in front of the “Luftaufsicht” and the guy disappeared for another 15 minutes with my documents including ID and airplane papers. Turns out he actually called my departure airport to ask if the time of departure was correct and then came back to shout some more as the time I had logged differed by 2 minutes from the one he was told by the C-office at ZRH. He then threatened me with a 500 Euro fine for falsifying my log and being grounded until it was paid cash on the table. At that time a 2nd guy arrived and they disappeared for another 30 minutes, after which I was handed my log back by the 2nd guy with another very stern reprimand never ever to turn up with a incomplete log again. I paid my landing fees and immediately departed that airport, despite having had plans to stay overnight directly to ZRH.
On return to ZRH I then was met by the local staff there and had my papers checked yet again, as the airport had filed a complaint with them prompting them to do a ramp check on me. Thankfully they did know me there and it was a short affair but still it was a very rude awakening to the particularities of flying in Germany.
While I’ve been back there some years later and found those two old-timers no longer there and replaced by friendly staff, I always take extra care in Gemany to have my logs, both airplane and personal, 100% filled in before even stepping out of the airplane. It would not occur to me to ever change my flight log book to an electronic log, as all that is required to warrant massive hassle would be the lack of mobile phone connection or an empty battery on my phone or tablet and am very uneasy about ramp checks in Germany now that we have electronic logs for the airplane, as I have heard people being questioned over those and required to produce print outs.
All this can now be avoided by saying “I don’t have my logbook with me”.
Cobalt wrote:
All this can now be avoided by saying “I don’t have my logbook with me”.
In Germany and I would assume quite some other places this would most likely result in being grounded until you can produce it.
How would a ramp check deal with the lack of logbook? Without it you can’t prove if you are current to fly.
What right does the c office have to look at your log book or issue a fine? In a multi day trip I wouldn’t bother filling up my log book until I’m back home.
dublinpilot wrote:
What right does the c office have to look at your log book or issue a fine?
In Germany every airport has a so called “Flugleiter” who is responsible for the operation of the airport. They do check people occasionally (less so in recent times is my impression) and will inform the LBA or Customs/immigration, whatever is applicable, if they find violations. When I started flying again in 2009, we went to different places in the South of Germany and several times we were told to report to the C-Office with all our paperwork, which was then checked thoroughly. Most of the times, it took less than 10 minutes, but in that one case, it took the better part of one hour and way very unpleasant.
In any case, the case the OP quotes is quite different: Here someone got busted after an accident by the LBA itself. Obviously after an accident, everything is checked and tripple checked and if they find you set one foot wrong ever it will come to bite you
But whenever you have to interact with officials in Germany, the first thing you are likely to be challenged is to present papers. Certainly with Police, Ordnungsamt officials and just about anyone else. It is a very bad idea to be out and about without papers in Germany or to not have them in order.
What right does the c office have to look at your log book or issue a fine? In a multi day trip I wouldn’t bother filling up my log book until I’m back home.
Its not the „C office“, it‘s the Luftaufsicht (German air police), not really the Flugleiter, which does that.
I had thought so, too (noting down flight times on you kneeboard and filling in your logbook after the end of a trip) is sufficient until I was checked (in 2005) in Nürnberg and the bloke told me otherwise. I was reprimanded, but nothing else. Of course, I still do it like this. Nothing more pathetic than pilots filling in their logbooks in the hotel room in a nice location on a trip…
