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Russian invasion of Ukraine

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Ultranomad wrote:

In Ukraine, it’s called SBU

You are right, my mistake.

I think both sides are cruel.For example, what has happened with Denis Kireev?

LHFM, LHTL, Hungary

Short answer – he was shot. By whom and why – not sure we will ever know.

What is almost amusing if it weren’t about a war is that the claim that Denis Kireev was shot resisting arrest or executed for being a double agent / fifth columnist is made by Russian media and pro-Russian MPs. This is highly unusual; if you have a plant that deep you normally keep shtum.

At the same time, the Ukrainians claim he was a hero killed in action.

This shows clearly that all messages from both sides are framed by their propaganda needs, not reality.

The post, however, a great example of whataboutism, in line with attempts to justify the war by claiming that Ukraine committed some sort of genocide on the “ethnic Russian” population (whatever that may be).

Biggin Hill

robirdus wrote:

I think both sides are cruel.For example, what has happened with Denis Kireev

What’s your point? It’s possible that he was a Russian collaborator – or not – and it’s also possible that the Ukrainian security service killed him. Does that in any way change how we should view the war?

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

The bunker in Mariopol was betrayed to the Russians by an electrician who knew the secret exits around the town.

The Russians still got beaten back but at a great cost.

The scale of the problem is huge. Estimates suggest 10% are stupid enough to be pro Russian…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Estimates suggest 10% are stupid enough to be pro Russian

That’s a sort of general fact about humanity – about 10% of any population are stupid enough to go along with just about any extreme viewpoint.

It is pretty amazing though that people can be “pro” the same people who are continually shelling and bombing them and trying to destroy them.

LFMD, France

When the dust settles, the question as to what it will be like to live as an Ethnic Russian in Ukraine will be important. My sympathies are firmly with the Ukrainians, but I can see why some Russians might be very apprehensive. It will be a real test of the Ukrainian administration as to whether they manage to safeguard the Russian minority when the war finishes, given the atrocities that have taken place in their name (not necessarily with their blessing – though for some individuals, that will have been the case).

Last Edited by kwlf at 13 May 11:05

kwlf wrote:

When the dust settles, the question as to what it will be like to live as an Ethnic Russian in Ukraine will be important. My sympathies are firmly with the Ukrainians, but I can see why some Russians might be very apprehensive. It will be a real test of the Ukrainian administration as to whether they manage to safeguard the Russian minority when the war finishes, given the atrocities that have taken place in their name (not necessarily with their blessing).

It’s not going to be easy and I seriously doubt it will happen judging by my experience.

Before the war in Croatia there was some 580.000 ethnic Serbs; just in few days of August 1995 it’s estimated that some 300.000 left and now there are some 170.000. It’s worth of mentioning that Croatia in total in this period lost big chunk of population from 4.8 mil in 1991 to 3.8 mil in 2021.

Similar situation is in Bosnia – in the half of the country governed by Serbs ethnic cleansing has been executed practically 100%. Before the war in that area Serbs made up a bit less than 50% (the rest were Bosnians and Croats) and now they make up some 90% of population. Also total number of Croats in Bosnia is one third of pre-war number.

After WWII huge ethnic German, Italian and Hungarian population was expelled from Yugoslavia. I don’t remember the exact numbers but norther Serbian county Vojvodina where ethnic Germans and Hungarians used to live was practically emptied after WWII and populated with Serbs from Bosnia. Similarly after last war parts of Croatia where ethnic Serbs used to live have been populated by Bosnian Croats.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia

Just adding to what Emir said:

As multi-ethnic empires or countries in Europe disintegrated in the past in Europe and countries formed more around nations than dynasties – which is the main trend in the past two centuries – only tiny minorities remain, and these have very strong ties to the country in which they are a minority in – so are reasonably well accepted.

The rest either fled or were expelled in a process we would now call “ethnic cleansing”; a few assimilated quietly and became indistinguishable from locals.

The only question is how many will die in the process.

Last Edited by Cobalt at 13 May 12:00
Biggin Hill

Cobalt wrote:

only tiny minorities remain, and these have very strong ties to the country in which they are a minority in – so are reasonably well accepted.

I’m not sure that’s entirely true. There are large Hungarian minorities outside the borders of Hungary and they don’t always have an easy time; Slavic dialects often change from village to village – quite how one decides where to draw the borders between most Slavic countries beats me. Wales is at least as different from England as Slovakia is from the Czech republic. There are large Russian minorities in the Baltic states.

And yet, as you say, people mostly seem to rub along OK.

Wales v. England… I’d say nobody with a brain gets massively excited about that issue

But Ukraine v. Russia is orders of magnitude more hatred after the current dust settles.

I’d say integration will be impossible unless Russians in Ukraine keep a very low profile.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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