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Russian invasion of Ukraine

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Things are moving

From elsewhere:

Was Morocco going to invade the rest of French Africa? Most of it is already in France so the 99 tanks won’t be needed.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Easy now on the Spanish ones. Right now between 4 and 6 and the next step is to see what the state is of 54 ones in hibernation as to determine how many can be delivered when.

Private field, Mallorca, Spain

Spiegel has just announced that Germany will provide 178 Leopard 1 instead of 88.

LKBU (near Prague), Czech Republic

Easy now on the Spanish ones. Right now between 4 and 6 and the next step is to see what the state is of 54 ones in hibernation as to determine how many can be delivered when.

I looked up the guy who was last in charge there:
Born: 4 December 1892, Ferrol, Spain
Died: 20 November 1975, Madrid, Spain

So those tanks will be at least 48 years SMOH It’s gonna take a lot of borescoping.

Spiegel has just announced that Germany will provide 178 Leopard 1 instead of 88.

Astonishing. The sands of public opinion must be shifting.

Belgium is not on that list. There was something on the TV that they sold their tanks to a local “businessman” for 10k each and now he wants 500k each for them. That’s a better investment than bitcoin

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

From elsewhere:

The Swedish “Stridsvagn 122” is an improved Leopard 2.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I think I saw somewhere that he Leopard 1 is vastly inferior to the Leopard 2. As in the Leopard 1 isn’t much better than what they are using at present and not really what they are asking for (modern western battle tanks).

Is that correct?

Likewise I don’t think the T72 or T74 are any real upgrade for them, and they already have a lot of them.

The M1 won’t be there for a long time yet. Autumn at best, and quite possibly next year or even after the war is over.

As mentioned above, a lot of the Spanish ones are in an unknown state and may turn out to be useless.

So when you take out the very outdated items, and look at what they really are looking for (modern tanks), and ones which will be delivered in the next 2-3 months, the list becomes a lot less impressive. Maybe even a disappointment for Ukraine.

I hope I’m wrong on that.

EIWT Weston, Ireland

It is probably true because so far all heavy stuff sent to Ukraine has been obsolete and/or ex-mothballed. Except the US Abrams but they aren’t going anytime soon. The UK ones are reportedly quite good too. But, yeah, heavy cynicism all around, especially with the refusal to grant export licenses on even the oldest junk… And anything current gets the more advanced add-ons stripped.

The consensus seems to be that the random collection will make logistics hard but Ukraine is already dealing with a wide variety of weapon systems, which they are solving by training only small groups e.g. 100-200 for each system.

This is as of a couple of days ago, with Russian daily losses (numbers from Ukraine) topping 1000 for the first time

It is unimaginable how this rate can be run without domestic protest but that is the key to understanding today’s Russia. Near-total population brainwash, facilitated by

  • internet availability only in some western regions plus a few other bits
  • internet control unless you are IT-savvy
  • drawing most soldiers from poor unconnected and remote areas
  • ease of control of radio and TV (a communist/socialist speciality, perfected over 100 years)
  • official tolerance of really amazingly militant TV programmes (“why can’t we just nuke Britain”) even though the presenters’ political leverage is zero
  • low value attached to human life (getting a fur coat if your son dies is ok)
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

It is unimaginable how this rate can be run without domestic protest but that is the key to understanding today’s Russia. Near-total population brainwash, facilitated by
[…]

That’s all true, but most of all it is (apparently) facilitated by a general feeling that everything that is wrong in society that doesn’t affect you personally is someone else’s problem. And that is even if you are very aware of exactly what is wrong.

The war in Ukraine? Awful, but not my problem. The neighbour’s son got drafted and killed? Horrible, but not my problem. What? I’m not allowed to go on holiday to Greece anymore? Why is the EU treating me like this? I haven’t done anything!

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 08 Feb 11:39
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

general feeling that everything that is wrong in society that doesn’t affect you personally is someone else’s problem

A friend who spent a year at Saint Petersburg University said something very similar. People wouldn’t clean up a mess on their own doorstep because that’s the state’s job. The fact the state hasn’t/won’t clean it isn’t the individual’s problem. I assume it’s a cultural hangover from Soviet times.

EGHO-LFQF-KCLW, United Kingdom

Capitaine wrote:

People wouldn’t clean up a mess on their own doorstep because that’s the state’s job. The fact the state hasn’t/won’t clean it isn’t the individual’s problem. I assume it’s a cultural hangover from Soviet times.

As a native of the USSR, I will say this is most certainly true, though not exclusively Soviet. To me, it has to do with the class structure of the Soviet society. An idea I came up with several years ago, though most likely not original, is that the usual division of the society into three classes is not so much about wealth (old money vs. new money vs. no money) as about responsibility: ‘I am responsible for everyone I come in contact with’ vs. ‘I am responsible for myself and everyone ought to be’ vs. ‘the society is responsible for me’. Accordingly, since the USSR was originally created as a state of, for and by the proletariat, and throughout its existence (except the last 15 years or so) the working class was favoured in a way similar to the West favouring formerly oppressed minorities through positive discrimination/affirmative action, this collective irresponsibility became part of the general culture. By the same token, it was considered morally reprehensible to steal from a person but much less so from the state or organisation (an old Soviet saying: ‘If you take a little from a lot, it’s not theft but merely sharing’). One can find the same views worldwide, but in civilised countries they aren’t prevalent.

Last Edited by Ultranomad at 08 Feb 13:08
LKBU (near Prague), Czech Republic
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