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Russian war in the Ukraine

This just in: Germany agrees to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. Better late than never.

@172driver, you’ve forgotten that in the latest propaganda campaign it is the ‘far right’ who dislike war, a rather odd view on their side, but anyway as a result the lefties are now all lined up to be warmongers per orders from HQ

Last Edited by Silvaire at 24 Jan 19:11

@Silvaire, you don’t understand European politics. The far right are not anti war, but pro Putin (or most other despots, for that matter).

172driver wrote:

You don’t understand European politics. The far right are not anti war, but pro Putin (or most other despots, for that matter).

I don’t think that’s correct, particularly in the former Russian controlled east block. But I do agree that’s how some in Europe (incorrectly) present it, most of them being left wing and wishing to distance themselves from the obvious alignment of their own ideas with the Russian political history and philosophy that is intrinsic to Putin. That puts them in rather an odd and humorous position, as I pointed out.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 24 Jan 19:51

172driver wrote:

This just in: Germany agrees to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. Better late than never.

Indeed. Finally a decision and the right one at that. I wonder how much better Germany would have looked if the same decision had been taken earlier?

Apparently Scholz waited for the allies to act as well an the US has now agreed to sent Abrams tanks while France will send Leclerc tanks.

Low-hours pilot
EDVM Hildesheim, Germany

. I can’t believe for a moment that any significant proportion of the German population actually WANT Putin to win.

I very much doubt that anyone in Germany wants Putin to win (apart from Schroeder and some of his chronies maybe) but imho they are wary about Ukraine winning either. I guess what they aim for is status quo ante referring to February 24th and a forced peace in Donbass, but not much more than that.

I also think some of their politicians are very concerned about the possibility of Ukraine trying to take the Krimea back, as the Russians have said several times that this would be a red line for them to use “all means available” to stop. Krimea holds the Russians most important military harbour in the black sea, so to them, it is non-negotiable. So I reckon a lot of people are very concerned that Putin will use nukes to keep that peninsula if that is what it takes.

Lots of German politicians have been way to close to Putin over the years, so it is also not impossible that he has quite a lot “on them” and exercises this pressure over them.

Sending this kind of tanks and armor to Ukraine will be seen by many in Russia as an act of war by those countries too. Putin will have to live up to his own propaganda, he will face pressure from within as much as from outside who might play a dangerous game of chicken to see if he lives up to his promises or not.

LSZH, Switzerland

I think @172driver is broadly correct in that far-right elements in Europe are generally ‘pro strongman leader’ regardless of that leader’s position on the traditional political spectrum.

It is also correct that the European left is much closer to hard-left socialism or even communism than Putin’s Russia is. Communism in the USSR at least attempted to maintain the veneer, no matter how implausible, of being in some way ‘for the people’. Putin does not even bother with that: it’s an out-and-out strongman autocracy / dictatorship with no serious attempt to disguise it.

As to the tanks, if it really does make a difference and allow Ukraine to drive Russia back to the border then Putin will surely make some new move. Quite what that’ll be is anybody’s guess, but if I were a betting man I’d put my money on a large-scale false flag operation attempting to implicate NATO, perhaps as his last-ditch attempt to convince China and others that Russia is the victim here.

EGLM & EGTN

they are wary about Ukraine winning either.

This isn’t about Ukraine “winning” anything. They got invaded. The invader needs to get out.

This isn’t a war between Ukraine and Russia, as the PC media like to label it.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

MedEwok wrote:

Apparently Scholz waited for the allies to act as well an the US has now agreed to sent Abrams tanks while France will send Leclerc tanks.

That makes me wonder what the Abrams was all about. Just by magic they work just fine?

Anyway. They for sure don’t make it easy for the Ukrainians. Now they have to learn and use 5 or 6? different tanks. Much better than none I suppose

ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

A lot of changes in last 24hrs.

Even CH is sending stuff – I wonder what they got in return?

The Wagner lot “recruited” (mostly, forcibly removed) ~50k from prisons and now ~40k of these are dead or missing. It is hard to believe this is happening in the 21st century. And another 1k Russians killed yesterday. It is the sort of thing one might expect from the 11th century. But Russia seems to just accept this as “okay”. I mean – there is no actual value to them in conquering Ukraine. It represents just 8% of their border so the “increase in NATO threat” is silly.

The view seems to be that a tank is much more useful than any number of “fighting vehicles”, so they want tanks. Modern ones, stabilised guns, IR vision, etc. In the Gulf wars, against Russian tanks, at night and at a distance, it was 1 shot = 1 tank gone. Ukraine seems to solve the “variety problem” by training a group of soldiers on the one system so e.g. 100 are being trained on the Patriot system, and this is all they need. They don’t need to train 1000. Those 100 will have this as their full time job.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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