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Russian war in the Ukraine

Hmm. I don’t know of anyone but Nammo that makes such ammo in Norway. 35 mm cannon shells is pretty serious stuff. They can be found on page 111 of their catalogue.

I would guess that the Gepard use a special round? this Nammo round is a general purpose round I assume. If this is the correct round for the Gepard? I have no clue I guess they can make special purpose ammo on order also, but I would think it would take much more than a week (at least before the Ukraine war) More like a year. The size is standard NATO though.

ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

Shame the catalogue doesn’t have a price list.

Last Edited by kwlf at 06 Dec 21:09

kwlf wrote:

Shame the catalogue doesn’t have a price list.

I’m sure they have a list for you, if you look like a serious buyer

From what I can figure out, no Gepard ammunition has been delivered from Nammo. The reason being:

  • They need data/specs from vareous German companies to start producing it (it’s apparently some special Gepard stuff of some kind)
  • They have received no data from any of those German companies.
  • They have recieved no order form Germany or anyone else to produce this 35 mm ammunition, and obviously cannot produce (and sell) it without specs.
  • Othervise the production line is ready to produce it.

Correct or not, I have no idea. Could be just gossip. Very little info can be found.

ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

Peter wrote:

which sounds like Swiss have a monopoly and Ukraine is just getting existing German stocks. But can’t CH ban the export of that too?

Afaik Switzerland would be able to ban the export of Swiss made 35 mm shells in German stocks under international law.

Earlier in the year when there were rumours that the Spanish were going to export Leopard 2A4 tanks to Ukraine, it was said that this attempt – if there really was one, nobody knows for sure – was blocked by Germany.

Even earlier, there was a lot of talk about what a big news it was that Germany permitted Estonia to export a bunch of old GDR-era D30 howitzer to Ukraine, contrary to longstanding German policy.

So yes, countries can definitely object to other countries exporting their military hardware to third countries and Switzerland should be no exception.

Low-hours pilot
EDVM Hildesheim, Germany

Afaik Switzerland would be able to ban the export of Swiss made 35 mm shells in German stocks under international law

This raises so many hilarious issues.

Obviously an arms manufacturing country needs to take some position on whose side they are on (even if they are officially neutral) otherwise there would be total anarchy. It’s always been the case that most arms dealers sell to both sides concurrently (you get double the sales, and then you get a third lot when the winner re-stocks) but arms dealers probably circumvent the export regs anyway. In this case Switzerland is being squeezed by Brussels to align with the EU – as is the case with most things. So I don’t understand how this stacks up given that the EU is mostly pro-Ukraine (after initially hoping that Ukraine folds up in a few days and the whole gas business is sorted with minimum inconvenience ).

One problem with getting the stuff made elsewhere is if the CH manufacturer has patents on it. Otherwise, it can’t be that hard to work out the dimensional tolerances.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

One problem with getting the stuff made elsewhere is if the CH manufacturer has patents on it.

BTW Bosnian ammunition factories work at their all time high, producing much more than during Bosnian war.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia

Selling to who, I wonder

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

This raises so many hilarious issues.

I fully agree. I think Switzerland has completely killed its weapon export industry with the “we as a neutral country cannot deliver ammunition to a country at war” position.
I mean it’s ok. If this is how neutrality is defined, then go for it. But don’t wonder if nobody will ever buy military stuff from you ever again.
It’s been in the press in the past days, that more and more countries are re-evaluating buying Swiss arms. And they are right to do so. The purpose of weapons it to be used in a war (preferably defensively but you never know). But as soon as you are in a war, you will need lots of additional ammunition and spare parts, which Switzerland won’t deliver. So Swiss bought weapons cannot fulfill their primary purpose, and are therefore completely useless.

The most “hilarious” part of all this is that it’s the right parties that have been pushing for a strong neutrality stance regarding the Russian invasion. And with this they deal the blow to their supporters, by destroying the jobs in the weapons industry.

LSZF,LSZK, Switzerland

The Russian invasion shows up so many of the defects (mostly political, but also economical) in Europe, it would almost be funny if it weren’t that serious. One can only hope that lessons will be learned, although I’m not holding my breath. Europe really needs to rethink its entire post WWII political and economic landscape and future, if it is to have any. The sad thing is that any new treaties will be written with the blood of the Ukrainians.

andy_flyer wrote:

I think Switzerland has completely killed its weapon export industry with the “we as a neutral country cannot deliver ammunition to a country at war” position.

That is not exactly new. Pilatus used to be a prime producer of military trainers. Due to this situation, they had 2 choices: Leave Switzerland or change to civilian products. So they invented the PC12 and later the PC24. The rest, as they say, is history. Oh yea, I believe you can still buy the PC6 Porter as well. Their military industry is now the fringe civil airplanes used to be. Yes, they still produce PC21 and PC9 trainers primarily for the EU and other similar markets, but not as weapon systems.

andy_flyer wrote:

The purpose of weapons it to be used in a war (preferably defensively but you never know). But as soon as you are in a war, you will need lots of additional ammunition and spare parts, which Switzerland won’t deliver.

Not quite. They will support systems in the original country of purchase. They will not however allow it to be delivered to third countries.

172driver wrote:

Europe really needs to rethink its entire post WWII political and economic landscape and future, if it is to have any. The sad thing is that any new treaties will be written with the blood of the Ukrainians.

It definitly needs to re-think their whole defence capabilities and coordination. So far, NATO did all this with the full involvement of the US. It is more than questionable if that will stand in the future. As we can see, the only reason NATO can not frontally take on Russia in Ukraine, like e.g. the US did when Kuwait was invaded, is nuclear. For now, that is also the reason why Russia won’t help itself to NATO countries. For the same reason, nobody has so far taken NK to the cleaners. So the clear if regrettable consequence is, that the most effective defence is to have a nuclear arsenal after all… MAD reborn. One shudders to think what will happen once Iran gets that capability. Which they eventually will get.

Similarily, neutral countries will need to figure out whether they have enough in their hands to keep possible purportrators from attacking. That it worked in WW2 does not mean it will work with the likes of Putin.

LSZH, Switzerland
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