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Russian invasion of Ukraine

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Peter wrote:

Interesting. Very little has been said about the Gepard. In fact just about nothing at all. It looks like it probably works, looking at the spec. It had never seen action so very little has been known about it.

Reading the wiki it is really old; even with upgrades the last probably 30-40 years ago, and all those made, domestic or exported, have been withdrawn from service. So basically it was just “old iron”. But perhaps it is effective against something.

The Gepard ist a fantastic piece of equipment. It was well-ahead of its time when designed, so the “30 to 40 years old” is somewhat misleading. There is no better gun-based (instead of missile-based) anti-air armoured vehicle in the Western inventory. The drawback is that this tank (we call it a “Flakpanzer” in German) is very complex, so the training it requires is very extensive, in fact it was the most extensive of all German land vehicles by some margin. It was phased out mainly due to the running costs and more importantly German defense ministers thinking there was no need to defend against foreign airforces anymore if the Bundeswehr was mainly fighting Taliban-style insurgents.

A more sophisticated, much more computerised successor, the Gepard II, was thus shelved before development began in earnest.

There is also an interesting historical parallel to the Gepard’s effectiveness: In World War II, another German piece of anti-air equipment was famously effective against ground targets, the Flak 88. In fact it was so effective that an entire tank was constructed around this cannon: The famous Tiger tank.

Low-hours pilot
EDVM Hildesheim, Germany

A radar controlled high rate gun is currently the best defence against sea skimming missiles, so with the right technology this should work well. One problem is that such a gun is mounted right on top of the target (the ship), whereas you can’t have a Gepard everywhere where somebody might want to bomb you And with a ~4km range, you need them either in the right place, or you need a lot of them.

I also think Ukraine is not freely publicising which systems work well for them, for both military reasons and because some donors may not want the publicity.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Russia has Germany (and de facto Europe) by the balls because of the oil and gas deliveries. Even though this has now kind of evaporated seeing that Russia seems to have stopped delivering gas altogether. I guess the idea that maybe if they don’t piss them off too much might cause the benevolent leader to turn the gas back on still persists, even though it is probably not realistic.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 17 Sep 05:12
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Germany has a lot of gas storage and they said that soon they will be self sufficient through the winter.

Fairly obviously, Putin, hearing this, turned off the gas before this could be achieved…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

It is interesting that there is now some public criticism in Russia both against the war strategy (on national TV, no less) and against Putin personally (by a number of local politicians). Given the state control on national TV and the risks involved with any criticism, something seems to have begun moving. Or Putin has decided to tolerate limited criticism as a safety valve.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 17 Sep 07:11
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Peter wrote:

A radar controlled high rate gun is currently the best defence against sea skimming missiles, so with the right technology this should work well

Zelenskyy had this public, online meeting with the Norwegian parliament right after the war started. He was very clear what he wanted of military equipment. He wanted NASAMS and in particular the NSM. The NSM (Naval Strike Missile) is a stealthy cruise anti ship missile and it’s insanely maneuverable. Designed to be launched from ships and ground vehicles. In the terminal phase it flies in a random fashion to make it harder to hit with AAA. Ukraine was before the war in the process of purchasing this system. Poland and the US also got them. Poland have them on mobile land launchers. When the Moskva was sunk, it was speculated that Ukraine used Polish NSMs. The NSM would certainly sink the Moskva, but it looks like Ukraine used their own Neptune missiles. It’s still a mystery how those Neptune missiles got through all of the defenses of the Moskva, and particularly the last AAA defense (looking at the condition of the Russian armed forces, it probably isn’t ?)

A version of the NSM, the JSM (Joint Strike Missile) fits inside the bays of the F-35. It’s a general purpose (stealth) cruise missile for land and sea. The ability to stealthy deliver a stealthy missile capable of hitting any high value target from vast distances (like big war ships), was in fact one of the main reasons, if not the main reason for Norway purchasing the F-35 instead of other stuff.

But off course, both the NASAMS and in particular the NSM/JSM are cutting edge technologies, and lots of it is in the process of being deployed. It’s not like we have lots of this stuff just laying around ready to be handed over The good old USA is now purchasing new NASAMS batteries to be handed over to Ukraine. NASAMS is easier logistically (and I guess also from a military/technologically intelligence point of view) since NASAMS uses ordinary AIM-120 and AIM-9X missiles. What has happened and is happening with the NSM vs Ukraine is shrouded in silence.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

The talks about F16 and the Patriot have also gone underground.

Re the Moskva, the story is that Ukraine kept the ship’s radar busy with a bunch of drones flying around, while they hit it with the missiles.

Just seen this on Sky News

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Very good move by Sky News to write about that. Now every Russian and their uncle know the NARAMS on the ground are definitely wooden dummies. Oh the stupidity of it all.

Safe landings !
EDLN, Germany

What did they write?

The Ukrainians went public with it in their military telegram feed, which I get.

But it probably doesn’t matter. Ukraine, like every former communist country, is full of 5th columnists with phones, which is why the HIMARS get taken out on the road at night.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

They are all still active, afaik

Safe landings !
EDLN, Germany
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