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Europe - why not issue a certificate immediately on passing the skills test / checkride, like the US does?

Peter wrote:

The staff is illiterate too. Just seen an email where they address a male license holder as female and with a mis-spelt name. These people must be on 35k just for (what used to be called) a “typist”. Care=0.

Here you go. 21-24k per year.

“dependant on experience” is a typo put there to prove your point, but I’m sure we’re all guilty occasionally.

I dare you to apply for this one, Peter.

Interestingly, with ‘dependent’ spelled correctly.

Last Edited by kwlf at 25 Nov 00:19

Graham wrote:

Is that something not quite translating from the Swedish, or is there genuinely a regulation stating that a person must be reliable in terms of their abstention from intoxication via* alcohol?

You have a blood test as part of your initial medical which will pick up many but not all heavy drinkers. I’m sure that if it is far enough out of line, questions will be asked.

I had imagined that we’re scrutinised more carefully in the UK than most of us suspect. There is a good-character requirement for license holders (or at least there was when I got mine). Evidently there are some very questionable characters in the aviation world who are allowed to continue, but presumably someone with a conviction for e.g. drug dealing will be flagged up if not denied a license?

Last Edited by kwlf at 25 Nov 00:33

I dare you to apply for this one, Peter.

I saved it here for ever

This bit

we’re looking for someone with a degree in an aviation related safety subject

will ensure that only career CAA corporate ladder climbers will be applying, because who else will go for a degree in aviation safety? Those “fake” Masters degrees are sold by the LSE, I believe…

I agree; 21-24k is not a lot, for the Gatwick area. I would be paying 25-30k here, Brighton area. But a lot of people much prefer to work in a bigger outfit where they “fit in and disappear” and you can pay those a lot less. The environment is very posh, starting with a subsidised restaurant.

The fitness of character policy is indeed there but I don’t think the CAA actually does the vetting, on a PPL application. Maybe on a CPL? That sort of background checking could take a long time. Never heard of them doing a criminal record check.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

will ensure that only career CAA corporate ladder climbers will be applying, because who else will go for a degree in aviation safety? Those “fake” Masters degrees are sold by the LSE, I believe…

Indeed. How can you be doing anything other than creating jobs for the boys in a closed shop when the requirements are an aviation safety degree and experience of managing UK airspace? No-one outside the CAA, NATS and the RAF can possibly meet these criteria.

kwlf wrote:

You have a blood test as part of your initial medical which will pick up many but not all heavy drinkers. I’m sure that if it is far enough out of line, questions will be asked.

I don’t know enough about haematology to know whether the tests they run on your sample will be able to detect anything more than the blood alcohol level at the time the sample was taken? In any case I’d question their right to use the sample for anything other than assessing my immediate medical fitness to hold a flight crew licence, which does not, by any reasonable assessment, include passing judgement on the beverages I choose to consume during time spent away from aviation. Alcohol as a flight safety issue is covered by the requirement not to act as crew with a blood alcohol level of [very little] or more.

kwlf wrote:

I had imagined that we’re scrutinised more carefully in the UK than most of us suspect.

It’s possible, but I doubt they are that organised. The CAA probably passes applicant data to MI5/MI6 to check against terrorism watch lists, but I’d say that’s about it.

kwlf wrote:

Evidently there are some very questionable characters in the aviation world who are allowed to continue, but presumably someone with a conviction for e.g. drug dealing will be flagged up if not denied a license?

I don’t know whether certain convictions automatically bar you, but it does seem the ‘good character’ policy would allow them to use that as a reason and gives them a high degree of discretion. They do seem to like exercising their power to make arbitrary decisions (or at least the airspace guy does) so it is perhaps a little surprising they allow so many dodgy characters who must be well-known to them to carry on. I guess they fear a legal challenge to such a decision.

If I had more time and energy to devote to the matter I’d look into the legal basis that sits behind the CAA’s opening lines in the fitness of character policy (obligation to be satisfied as to fitness of character). Plenty of organisations enjoy foisting imaginary obligations on themselves where none actually exist, mainly so they can devote time and money to developing policies and implementing them, and while I’d hope the CAA would be more careful in this regard my confidence in them is not high.

Last Edited by Graham at 25 Nov 09:34
EGLM & EGTN

In your medical, a sample is taken for a full blood count. One of the reported parameters will be the mean red cell volume. If this is raised then this can indicate a medical problem such as vitamin deficiencies that can cause cognitive impairment, but it is also often associated with chronic alcohol excess. Either way, if it is far out of line it needs an explanation.

I’m not an AME, but I would be surprised if a patient drinking e.g. 40 units a week didn’t raise concerns. The occasional binge wouldn’t show up.

Last Edited by kwlf at 25 Nov 13:29

kwlf wrote:

I’m not an AME, but I would be surprised if a patient drinking e.g. 40 units a week didn’t raise concerns.

Does that show up reliably on the mean red cell volume then?

I can’t recall if I was asked to state weekly alcohol consumption at the initial medical, but I don’t imagine heavy drinkers truthfully answer such questions anyhow.

EGLM & EGTN

Graham wrote:

Does that show up reliably on the mean red cell volume then?

What does it mean to drink excessive alcohol? Getting comatose once a month but abstaining the rest of the time? Drinking a small nightcap every night without fail? 15 units a week (above guidelines, but lots of people might argue the guidelines are too strict). 30 units a week? (fairly clearly too much)? 60 units a week? 120 units a week?

One source I found said that looking at the MCV is only 50% sensitive for alcohol abuse, but more specific than I realised (90%). But these figures depend on factors such as where you live, how old you are and what you consider problem drinking to be. If you are in Saudi Arabia, a lower proportion of raised MCVs will be due to alcohol abuse (i.e. the test will be less specific). I would wager that most people will end up with a raised MCV if they ramp up their alcohol intake sufficiently, but for some people this will be at relatively modest levels and other people will have to drink a lot more before their blood tests pick it up. TBH there are levels of chronic alcohol abuse that are clearly going to be prejudicial to flying, and although I do not know much about aviation medicine I would be surprised if AMEs don’t look at their clients’ MCVs.

So, how come the US gives you an instant right to fly, while the US is not covered in wreckage flown by drunk pilots?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Personally I had my medical well before I passed my skills test, then I was given a chit of paper that apparently meant I could fly (but the local school wouldn’t rent me a plane until I had my license proper).

A fair proportion of American pilots involved in accidents are found to have drugs or alcohol in their system, though this won’t have caused the accidents in all cases. I doubt this is much different in most other parts of the world.

Last Edited by kwlf at 25 Nov 18:55

Peter wrote:

So, how come the US gives you an instant right to fly, while the US is not covered in wreckage flown by drunk pilots?

One part of the story could be, that FAA is much stricter in terms of alcohol than most of the CAA is:
- You have to report any conviction or administrative action for driving under influence at your medical application and your AME will report to the FAA
- You have to report any conviction or administrative action for driving under influence within 60 days to the FAA

Action of FAA is decided on case by case basis, but typically the second time you are toped by police in your car with alcohol above the local limit you will have both license suspension as well as a mandatory “alcohol education program”.
For European pilots that actually implies that the second time they get caught by the police with more than the locally allowed blood alcohol (or they refuse the test) they loose their FAA license for lifetime as there is no way to do the required “education program” in Europe.

Germany
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