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PC-12 down in Milan Linate

Peter wrote:

I just don’t get somebody who is bright enough to know they aren’t all that brilliant to be hand-flying all that way up, implementing ATC directions, all the other busy stuff, while being a hero and flying by hand. On an IR test you hand-fly; all the rest of the time you aren’t playing a hero and it is autopilot practically the whole time

Not speculating on the cause of the accident, but I wholeheartedly agree with you. The AP is a very useful tool for IFR flying in particular single pilot, the faster the plane you fly, the more help automation will be. I find it dumb to not use the automation rather than the opposite. Personally, an AP failure (on the ground) for me would be a no-go if conditions are actual solid IMC. Could I do it without, yes. Do I practice without, yes. Is the AP on my minimal equipment list. Yes. I wouldn’t fly without it. Wouldn’t go up without a back-up handheld radio or the ADL for a proper IFR flight either.

LFHN - Bellegarde - Vouvray France

The PC12 crash reports posted by Emir above are worth reading. Quite obviously it is not hard to get this aircraft out of control and once you get beyond a certain roll angle then things happen very fast and the situation can’t be recovered. To go out of control in 300ft of IMC and then be unable to recover in 5000ft of VMC, takes some going!

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

What does " loss of spatial orientation " actually look like and what actually triggers it?

France

Peter wrote:

To go out of control in 300ft of IMC and then be unable to recover in 5000ft of VMC, takes some going!

Also bear in mind field elev is 350ft, so a 5000ft ceiling is about 5350ft AMSL which is approx the reported max altitude….

Antonio
LESB, Spain

What does " loss of spatial orientation " actually look like and what actually triggers it?

Hand flying a low wing loading in bumpy IMC and turning your head in an ugly way to pick some plates or maps from your backseats while repeating some ATC clearances on the radio not related to this flight or dramatic outcome but what a nasty experience…

In a perfect world an „instrument capable“ pilot doesn’t lose control. Reality is far from a perfect world.

In a perfect world all you have to do is to keep wing level and sensible speed, just like the puzzle why pilots, including some very experienced, will just fall out of the sky during a circuit on a sunny day…

Last Edited by Ibra at 07 Oct 08:43
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

gallois wrote:

What does " loss of spatial orientation " actually look like and what actually triggers it?

Besides weather and navigation that topic is maybe the biggest part in IR theory. There are a lot of reasons why one could suffer lack of spatial orientation. In general, when any of your “inner sensors” feels something that is contrary to what your eyes see you may suffer from that. This can go all the way up to an incapacitation. Your “inner sensors” trick you, let aside flying in bumpy air. The solution is simple. Trust the bloody instruments. But not so simple, either, because you shouldn’t trust them to 100%, because instruments can fail. So in fact, flying IFR could, by some, be regarded as some form of borderlining

Regarding this case, I join the group which say don’t believe the LSO theory. It really sounds too simple.

Last Edited by UdoR at 07 Oct 09:47
Germany

Regarding this case, I join the group which say don’t believe the LSO theory. It really sounds too simple.

Regardless of 5 or 6 examples of exactly that cause on the same aircraft? Regardless the fact that practically all fatal accidents in last 10 years with PC-12 had LOS as a cause of accident?

Last Edited by Emir at 07 Oct 10:49
LDZA LDVA, Croatia

@UdoR, I understand what you are saying, here we talk about “seat of the pants” (translation) flying as opposed to trusting your instruments. But I would have expected most PC12 pilots were aware of these problems and experienced in how to deal with them. Yet from @Emir list of accident reports for the PC12, being due to this “seat of the pants” flying is rather puzzling and wondered if the reported “loss of spatial awareness” might have another meaning in these cases.
Also an earlier post mentioned that the pilot had reportedly asked for vectors to return to the field in a normal fashion. How would this coincide with loss of special awareness which would usually present itself with an increase of adrenalin and would surely have been heard in his voice when asking for vectors.

France

UdoR wrote:

Trust the bloody instruments. But not so simple,

Last week I was on a long trip. I was climbing out of controlled airspace, from 2500 – 7000. I lost my AI. I was IFR in cloud and had to remain IFR for about 15 minutes. Years ago flying my Chipmunk, my instructor always climbed through to go on top. We did it with a simple panel, slip and climb meter. Freaked me first time, but I really got used to it. So last week rather than freeze and panic, I went back to Chipmunk mode. I had no chance to cover the tumbling AI so tried to ignore it. Slip and compass, and of course Sky Demon for route awareness.It ended up a beautiful CAVOK trip, with no issues other than my broken AI. The point that I am making is that even when things go wrong, some badly wrong, inert training and discipline kicks in. The was a very capable plane, and to lose it the way they did with family and kids on board just makes no sense at all. Even if he had lost the whole panel.

Also a close look at the video appears to show a pretty controlled level dive into the ground. What could possibly do that?

Fly safe. I want this thing to land l...
EGPF Glasgow

Also an earlier post mentioned that the pilot had reportedly asked for vectors to return to the field in a normal fashion. How would this coincide with loss of special awareness which would usually present itself with an increase of adrenalin and would surely have been heard in his voice when asking for vectors.

I can easily imagine scenario for this: failure of some instrument (autopilot, MFD, PFD) which itself is not an emergency, pilot switches to hand-flying, asks for return vectors, tries to figure out the reason of the failure, currently in IMC, bank increases without being noticed, at 70 degrees of bank wrong recovery action, the aircraft goes to spiral dive and overspeed, it’s non-recoverable anymore and airframe possibly disintegrates or aircraft hits the ground under very steep angle with speed over 300 KIAS and sink rate over 15.000 ft/min.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia
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