Dimme wrote:
EU should make this illegal.
In the end it is market economy at it’s worst. However: People who apply for this are not your average senior citizen buying overpriced rheuma blankets: They are comparatively intelligent young people who have a dream and will pursue it no matter what.
Obviously these conditions suck. Obviously this all in all will catch with other companies too and will or already IS the industry standard. Obviously, in an industry which will most probably shrink in the next years rather than expand due to ecological concerns, due to Covid (if you think that is over, think again….), it is common place that people who want to work in this industry will get exploited by the financial gurus of the companies: If your job is so attractive that people pay to do it, what more can you wish.
It will be difficult to make this illegal: There is no pressure put onto anyone signing up for something like this, it is a contract between competent parties and heavens if there is not enough information available on the subject. EVERY PILOT who signs for this knows EXACTLY what he is in for. Cabin crew as well. Still they do it.
I recall talking to a guy who went into the industry via pay to fly with a now gone eastern European company. He got his 737 rating there, paid to fly for half a year I think and then was not taken over into the salary pilots corps. Good for him, as the airline folded shortly thereafter, but after a few months he got a job on a cargo 737 . In the end, these entry level ratings WILL land you something or the other.
And while the airlines are shrinking at the moment, VIP flying is up. I had several colleagues who were fired from Netjets and rehired a few weeks later when Covid decimated the airline industry.
No, it isn’t nice. But at least it is open to a lot more people than the old airline sponsored schemes which had a washout rate of 100 or more to 1.
Dimme wrote:
EU should make this illegal.
I’m against the idea in general that EU (or any national state) should make something illegal that two adult people agree on in full understanding on what they agree without any negative impact on third parties. In that specific case if they would make this illegal they also need to ban all ATPL flight schools, but also all stage academies / acting schools, major parts of professional soccer, etc.
We also must not forget, that in Europe we are extremely spoiled when it comes to cost of education (Silvair might argue that is because we are all communists ;-). If I talk to my Chinese and Indian friends, e.g. it is completely normal (and socially fully accepted) that you pay a 4 digit application fee (note: application, not entry fee) when you try to get your child into a top class primary school (and in China even in Kindergarden).
Even the 100k for ATPL training is not something unusual everywhere but in Europe. In the US, you (hopefully) have this on the College account anyways…
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I had several colleagues who were fired from Netjets and rehired a few weeks later when Covid decimated the airline industry.No, it isn’t nice.
No, absolutely not nice! But again, it helps to look outside of our small little island: In tourism it is (unfortunately) absolutely normal – also and especially in Switzerland – that staff is only hired for Dec-Mar and Jun-Aug and fired in between. In some countries they even fire teachers at the begin of the summer break and rehire them after.
So this is a far bigger challenge than just in our cute little industry.
I ran into a former Ryanair pilot a few weeks ago – he was visiting the Aeroclub at Dax where he flew a while back. He is now very happily flying 330s and 350s for Air Caraibe. He portrayed Ryanair as a dreadful place where you have to pay for absolutely everything (€200 for a badge, iirc, for example) and where the working conditions are very tough too – four sectors per day starting before dawn. His view is that you just have to view this as a kind of apprenticeship – a bit like being an intern on your way to practising as a doctor.
Meanwhile the instructor I’m flying with there is just biding time until he can get a job with an airline. I’m sure he’d be over the moon at flying for Ryanair or Wizz.
The same guy also described flying into St Marten, which is one of the airports they serve. On takeoff you are flying straight into a mountainside, and with an engine failure at V1 things get pretty exciting (in the sim of course).
Peter wrote:
The only way to get out of this is to start your own business, and you can certainly do that with much less than what it costs to get a CPL/IR (I’ve done it 2x)
Would you mentor me?
I’m against the idea in general that EU (or any national state) should make something illegal
Agree. If Pilots want to earn what they deserve, have them grow some courage and unionize the s___t out of these bottom feeder companies.
How much does southwest pay again? And still very profitable!
Only 18 months ago white tail cadets were getting bonded FO national flag carrier jobs before even taking the IR, just conditional on passing the IR (first or second or third series, just a pass!).
Ryanair which operates a somewhat up or out philosophy, is probably still the fastest route to command with many Captains in their twenties. This phenomenon last seen on multi engine transport in WW2 or Vietnam. They then go onto long haul in the Middle East and hang up their headsets at 55.
Conversely there are many 20,000 hour FOs in North America in their 50’s. The industry must have been the original idea for Snakes and Ladders.
I have come across Cadets who turned down a place at Oxford, so not obviously stupid, and who even now, I expect will find their feet in the industry and get a decent job (probably outside Europe).
I know of a number of RyanAir captains who are very happy with their job and making good money. They tend to progress to captain fairly quickly.
But looking at it from the airline point of view, why would you pay for someone’s type rating course and give them a great starting salary, when you have a queue of other people shouting “I’ll pay for my own type rating and I’m happy to work for a small salary for the first few years!”
If there was a shortage of able people things would be different, but it’s “dog eat dog” when it comes to looking for a starting position in the airlines. Way more people want the job than there are positions available.
Malibuflyer wrote:
We also must not forget, that in Europe we are extremely spoiled when it comes to cost of education
You could well argue (and I believe it to be true) that low cost of education benefits society as a whole. So it is not a question of being “spoiled” but rather rational behaviour on the part of the government. And there are many other things that, depending on your political position, might or might not be advantageous.
Snoopy wrote:
How much does southwest pay again?
That is a very good question: How much does Southwest pay for somebody who just got it’s CPL and is hundreds of hours away from getting an ATPL?
Malibuflyer wrote:
We also must not forget, that in Europe we are extremely spoiled when it comes to cost of education (Silvair might argue that is because we are all communists ;-)
My university education cost about $700 or $800 per year, heavily subsidized by US state government, plus books that could be resold at the end of each class. Not a very prestigious program all in all, but judging from the thread it’s allowed me make US airline captain wages at the same age as an airline captain – which is what matters to me now, years later, along with the investments that uninterrupted, progressively rising income allowed.
Nowadays my ex-university of (then) 30,000 students is even bigger and somewhat fancier, and it costs more money for the same program (what government run institution ever decreases in cost?) but you can still reasonably plan to graduate debt free, if you work summers like I did. Scholarships (which are actually merit based price discounts) are meanwhile more widely available at non-state universities, and the market provides quality post graduate education for the world, not just the US. Full price tuition charged to foreigners funds a lot of the scholarships for Americans. There’s a spectrum of educational opportunities in the US, and the net result is that as a percentage of population more (not less) people get higher education in the US than most other places. What has changed most I think in the US is that the parents nowadays often have a lot more money to pay for their kid’s education and an interest in getting ‘the best’ even if it doesn’t actually make that much difference for many people, just a fraction of them.
