Malibuflyer wrote:
It is amazing how many and how violently non German pilots are trying to persuade German pilots that they should feel miserably – mainly based on theoretical considerations w/o any practical experience
No one from outside the country needs to persuade me that this nonsense is the biggest conceivable royal PITA about flying in Germany.
It is disillusioning to see so much resistance even from WITHIN the German pilots’ community (as proven here by some posters) against getting rid of an entirely non-sensical (I believe all the arguments have been brought forward) regulation – when the rest of the world shows, day in and day out, how it’s done properly.
@Malibuflyer – you argue that it is a non-issue because whenever you need a Flugleiter you will be able to find one, especially at the smaller fields where there is some sense of companionship. This entirely fails to acknowledge the point that it considerably limits the freedom of flight if you have to ask someone to nanny you each time you want to make a landing or a departure. It is crippling and adds another useless coordination task to what could otherwise be a laid back flying day.
In my example, I often pick up our aircraft from where it’s based to bring it closer to our home (where no hangar space is available) for flying trips over the weekend. That makes four to six events usually where I need someone on-site:
Yes – it mostly works. But it’s a useless additional “To Do” for me and I find it unpleasant to constantly be subject to someone else’s willingness to let me in/out. It also prohibits getting home in the evening at any time we want – or else you need to start coordinating again with the Flugleiter, as you surely wouldn’t want him to wait for 2 hours while you’re still out on some island?
I’m very grateful that I don’t need to arrange for anyone watching me drive to the airfield during those exercises – to make sure I’m all save on the road. Thank you Germany, for giving us at least that.
Patrick wrote:
adds another useless coordination task to what could otherwise be a laid back flying day.
Patrick wrote:
It also prohibits getting home in the evening at any time we want
You seem to be both the luckiest and the unluckiest pilot in Germany at the same time!
The luckiest pilot, because the two airfields you fly to most seem to be two of the very rare airfields in Germany, where the opening hours in the evening are only limited by presence of the Flugleiter and not – as in the vast majority of airfields in Germany – by the airfield certification that is driven by noise protection.
The unluckiest pilots because as – in contrast to the vast majority of airfields – it seems to be a challenge that exactly in those dream fields there is no Flugleiter “automatically” present during normal operation hours on weekends.
I’m sorry for you – but this is not the experience of the average German pilot. The average German airfield operation is limited by opening hours and not by Flugleiter availability and esp. on weekends you do not need to do anything for a Flugleiter to be present.
Patrick wrote:
adds another useless coordination task
If you read the Austrian regulations for flying w/o Flugleiter there, you get an idea what “useless coordination tasks” could be.
I don’t think it’s lucky/unlucky, he is just a touring pilot who is probably night rated? that may not fit well in the large majority of “VFR only midday 1h local bimble” 
I would not complain about “Flugleiter rules” in my gliding club, we need a ground crew present to keep “airspace open and do the logs” but there is no shortage of these guys during normal busy times, when it become tricky is when someone wants to fly late evenings on weekdays (usually aerobatics guys as weather is calm and airspace is empty), he needs to find a tug pilot, which is easy to arrange, but he will get stuck finding the ground crew, usually no one is willing…
However, in my aeroplane homebase, it will be just unacceptable to Flugleiter, I think powered aeroplanes can be operated safely with just 1POB, no need for somome to “supervise your solo”, “to launch you” or “watch you land”
It is amazing how many and how violently non German pilots are trying to persuade German pilots that they should feel miserably – mainly based on theoretical considerations w/o any practical experience
I think this is an interesting observation – and indeed the question is why, and why so many German pilots defend it.
Let me start with the second one: the reason many people defend unnecessary restrictions (and that includes defending PPR in the UK, etc.; not unique to this) is that the oppressed would indeed feel miserable if they didn’t believe in them. It feels much better to truly believe that the daily beatings are for one’s own good and to accept the benevolence of big brother.
“You must love Big Brother. It is not enough to obey him: you must love him.”
— O’Brien to Winston, 1984.
As to why people want to convince – I think it is probably an unhealthy obsession.
Malibuflyer wrote:
by the airfield certification that is driven by noise protection
That, to my experience, seems not to be true for “most aerodromes”. There are aerodromes which have opening hours restricted due to noise issues, and of course those are over all the “interesting” ones with a higher number of movements per year. The islands, the aerodromes very close or even inside cities and the “big” ones.
But as far as I got in touch with such regulation, the typical aerodromes in Germany limit the operation hours in order to need less staff – less “Flugleiter”. I can happily land in the middle of the night or take off 5 o’clock in the morning, if I can persuade someone to come to the airfield – and have done so already. And I know of more airfields where it is the same, as of airfields which are limited due to noise.
However, I think the outcome could be something like staff will still be mandatory above a certain amount of movements per year, and flying without “Flugleiter” will maybe affect only very small airfields with grass strips, where anyhow no night landings are possible. This is nothing where you’d go with a big or expensive aircraft. But flying with a Microlight to a 300 meter grass strip anytime is fun, too.
Malibuflyer wrote:
You seem to be both the luckiest and the unluckiest pilot in Germany at the same time!
On average, I think I’m medium lucky, thanks
Malibuflyer wrote:
The average German airfield operation is limited by opening hours and not by Flugleiter availability
What research do you base this on?
I sincerly doubt this is anywhere near true. As @UdoR has pointed out correctly, there is a number of airfields in Germany that have more or less strict noise abatement procedures that are reflected in the opening hours. Even for those airfields, often a PPR departure or arrival outside of those times is possible – if the required personnel is present and in case of larger airfields, the hefty fee for that personnel is paid by the pilot.
Without having research to back it up myself, in my estimation the vast majority of especially smaller, club-operated airfields (often with an active glider scene but limited powered flight operations) is only subject to the Flugleiter requirement. So arrivals or departures are possible at any time IF you can arrange a Flugleiter.
Let’s build upon the example from above: Let’s say, for WX reasons or personal reasons I can’t return my aircraft to homebase on Sunday evening, but instead want to do this e.g. on Monday morning before work. Sure it’s possible, if you can get someone to be potentially late for THEIR work as well to watch (!) you take-off. It’s entirely ridiculous and I’m sorry, it’s even more ridiculous – when looking at almost all other countries with GA activity globally except maybe Austria – that people are actually making an effort to defend this BS. Again, we’re not debating the usefulness of ground staff in general – we’re talking about the legal requirement for ground staff to be present to watch… every… single… movement.
It’s almost impossible to get ground crew in our gliding club on Wednesday evenings “to do the logs”, unless you pick someone on the street or convince your partner to be in the tower, in the other hand it’s easy to pair up tug & glider pilot and go and have a nice Wednesday afternoon off work doing aerobatics on a really short notice
I am assuming most pilots have busy family & work schedules? if weather is crap on weekends, they will try to fit a quick flight on weekdays in late hours on short notice instead of ending up as “dormant pilots” who fly once in 3 months, need whole day for flying 30min while relying on big army of ground personnel to do that “experience”: Instructors, Flugleiter, CFI, Restaurant, Reception…
I agree with @Peter and @UdoR, most airfields have limited opening hours due to limited staff and not due to noise abatement. A Flugleiter is often (even on medium-sized airfields) a volunteer how does his/her job in their free time.
For example at my home base EDKM, the airfield opens daily at 10 am (except Mondays, which are closed). Way too late for a proper day trip. However, one Flugleiter sits in our tower from 10 am up to 8 pm. What do you think he/she would say, if they need to come at 8 am already? Most of them will quit their job as Flugleiter, or half-day shifts need to be introduced (which the airfield owner doesn’t want). If you do want to get out before 10 am, you need to pay 40€ PPR-fee and organize another Flugleiter how can watch your take-off. Totally ridiculous, especially the fees on top of it, which isn’t meant for the Flugleiter, but for the airfield company only. However, we are in theory even allowed to have several movements at night, as we offer NVFR on PPR basis. Almost nobody is using it, except our PC-12 sometimes. If you want to use NVFR, you need to pay a 40€ PPR fee plus organize a Flugleiter and a signed-off familiarization flight.
My second home base is EDLA, pretty close by as well. They have during the week pretty good opening hours from 6 am to 9 am on request (without further fees), and from 9 am to 8 pm normally. The problem is however, that after 8 pm, the complete airfield area gets closed. So if I land let’s say 7.50 pm, I’m totally legal, but then some personnel how wants their free evening, pushes the airplane quickly in the hangar and sends me off the apron. No time for writing logbooks, cleaning airplanes or something else. Landing after 8 pm costs even around 55€ PPR fee.
I think the problem is not the Flugleiter. The problem is that landing without Flugleiter or outside opening hours or both is strictly prohibited in Germany. If somebody needs to be pampered by a Flugleiter, ok, have one. But all other pilots who don’t need are heavily restricted and that explains the hot discussion here. And opening hours? Never heard of opening hours for streets or roads or autobahn. Maybe that is because they are so silent.
Frans wrote:
my home base EDKM, the airfield opens daily at 10 am
EDLF opens daily at 11 am. Even a little closer to sunset
