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Flugleiter in Germany - pointless?

Flugleither is just like having a doctor on the airfield, I would love to have one when I takeoff/land and I wish every airfield has an emergency treatment room, but I don’t need to see a doctor every time I want to fly

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
Cobalt,

it is not the flugleiter´s choice of having first takeoffs not before 9 o´clock but the airfield operator´s agreement with closeby towns and inhabitants. Different situation in Australia with nobody living “next door”. You are aware about airfield closures ? Santa Monica will be one of the most famous and busiest to close in 2028 due to neighbourhood – or real estate corporations. So a flugleiter just takes care to keep agreed opening hours for keeping the place active and accepted by next towns population . Certainly not a factor when there is no town nearby so you have to see the specific situation of the airfield. A Cirrus is extremely noisy on takeoff so 9 o´clock in the morning is not to critisize I´d say. No big government is to blame for that kind of regulations but an obvious respect for people living close by who have to tolerate that noise all year. Times are a´changing and the older among us will remember all sorts of workshops like blacksmiths, carpenters, even farmers with a few cattle had their homes right in the town next to us. You were used to be awakened early in the morning by all sorts of noises from going along with their business to earn a living. Now compare this to the modern towns , that sort of business was swiped out of town into trade areas , not only due to more space for buildings but because of people unwilling to accept that “nuisance” anymore. So no surprise about even less acceptance of early morning noise at weekends from pure hobby activities. It is not helpful to point to other countries looking like aviation heavens when situations are just not comparable – for more than one reason.
You can try to arrange an earlier takeoff or late landing with the flugleiter – not very differnt to PPR sh**t – so this is not law but an airfield deal with nearby towns to limit abuses. I´d think a late landing one or two hours is the easiest to get as not much noise emitted. But you have to agree to some extra fee for a longer opening on the place – or would you do it for free if you were him ???

Vic
vic
EDME

But if you are flying in weather, you want some flexibility on departure/arrival times no?

It would be more safe to arrive at 7pm without Flugleither vs at 5pm with him landing in heavy showers? I personally would prefer to delay the flight and fly safely in good weather on my own rather than trying to get to airfield in crap weather to meet one guy

I really fail to see how presence of Flugleighter can help reducing noise of Cirrus 310hp on 9am takeoff? maybe he can ask pilots to pull it back to 2400rpm at 300ft agl or pilots install silencing devices or put a composite 4 blades prop?

Funnily enough the only time I departed early morning at 5am out of hours, the condition was to check with the neighbour who live near my parking stand, he asked to push aircraft 1000m away from his house before starting and power checks, pity we should have left the aircraft on the other runway the day before

There is not much noise in late evenings out of hours landings, no one notices or complains (everything is done quietly in the dark ), unless you go around, but I always had to pay someone (fireman usually or resident students in ATO nearby) to switch the lights ON for my arrival, I was told UK CAA would never allow PCL in the airport !

Last Edited by Ibra at 07 May 23:19
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
No problem with flexibility here, now try that with PPR bullshit the day before ! When you want to takeoff before 9 AM just ask the flugleiter if it is allright with him (the airfield operator´s policy ). My guess no luck with a Cirrus at 5 AM max power over the town . We´d like to keep the airfield alive for a few more years and that kind of morning wakeup will not help much for this purpose. And nobody will force you to land at 5 PM in sh** weather, just call the place for a late arrival at 8 PM , will cost a bit extra but my guess not that kind of money you charge per hour in your business. Or you delay the return flight to next day as you like, again no need for PPR BS . One of the reasons to have somebody collect landing fees is a certain mistrust of the airfield operator in pilots of actually putting the money in the mailbox as wanted. That again can be related to some pilot characters which not necessarily are as thoroughly positive as they want to appear. Vic
vic
EDME

One of the reasons to have somebody collect landing fees is a certain mistrust of the airfield operator in pilots of actually putting the money in the mailbox as wanted. That again can be related to some pilot characters which not necessarily are as thoroughly positive as they want to appear. Vic

I remember landing at one Belgian airfield close to the Dutch border which had an honesty box for landing fees – there was a sign asking pilots to pay the landing fee by putting it in the tin – with a PS – “Also applies to Dutch pilots”

EHLE / Lelystad, Netherlands, Netherlands

That has been an often expressed concern here in the UK

Pilots are no different to others; if they can get a freebie they will. But it should be a small % especially if there are webcams – which there certainly should be for vandalism reasons. Webcams are a lot cheaper than a person.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

vic wrote:

When you want to takeoff before 9 AM just ask the flugleiter if it is allright with him (the airfield operator´s policy ). My guess no luck with a Cirrus at 5 AM max power over the town . We´d like to keep the airfield alive for a few more years and that kind of morning wakeup will not help much for this purpose.

I don’t see how the “Flugleiterpflicht” helps here. Or is your concern that without it pilots would ignore opening hours?

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 08 May 07:56
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Guys, you have to distinguish between operation hours due to noise abatement and environmental issues on one hand side, which e.g. affects Juist and all the islands. And such where in principle operation would be possible but is not allowed if nobody’s there.

On a typical working day on normal operation time it’s sometimes annoying to search for someone able to come to the airfield on a PPR airfield. On weekends most small airfields are open, but not so every day.

Germany

Vic,

I think you are mixing up things here.

An airfield can have fixed opening hours for the sake of neighbours and other rules in place without anyone being there to see that the stupid / evil pilots follow them? Works in Switzerland most of the time? Why not in Germany?

But if an airfield is restricted in operating hours BECAUSE there has to be that one guy present and once he goes home, the field is shut, that is stupid. If there are no such concerns or at least people accept the airfield being open longer, then either you have to hire a 2nd guy and work shifts or you trust the pilots to keep to the rules without him.

There is no question that a paid staff in permanence at an airfield can have advantages and does in many cases. However, as you can easily see with the most part of the world, there is nothing wrong if an airfield is unattended or if the staff do other things rather than sit in a small “tower” and watch everyone take off and land and kepp records. I regularly operated out of airfields where there is nobody in evidence, Wangen Lachen, Langenthal, Speck, just to name a few. Why would a 500 m strip out in the boonies in Germany need a compulsory Flugleiter when the rest of the world can do without them?

As for emergencies, often enough there are other people in the near vicinity, such as keepers of the restaurant, maintenance folks, sight seers, neighbours, who will certainly notice if something happens in due course. And if not, as I said, that risk also is there if you drive a lonly country road and your car ends up in a tree or a field. And cars don’t even have ELT’s which may well announce a mishap much quicker than any such other accident.

The whole concept of compulsory Flugleiter corresponds to the German non exclusive but yet still very prominent urge to control everyone and everything, as well as the reluctance to service under the moniker “Da könnte ja jeder kommen”, in Anglosaxon society known as the “Fawlty Towers Syndrome” perfected by one Basil Fawlty, who could just about run his hotel perfectly if it was not for the cumbersome guests. A general distrust between government and people so everyone feels compelled to check and report on any misdemeanour as present in any kind of “Ordnungsämter” and other local organisations who oversee that no dog craps on a sidewalk and kids don’t exceed the prescribed noise level when playing soccer.

That is really all that is to this Aufsichtspflicht. IMHO many of those people could do this job much better if they were simply there to make sure that the airfield is in a good shape and customers are supported in their flight duties as much as necessary and convenient. In the absence of someone actually there, pilots can mostly help themselfs.
s
And don’t worry: If any pilot should transgress opening hours and take off 2 minutes before the time, there always will be a friendly neighbour with a camera who will report the evil deed as reliable and even more actively than a aviation minded flugleiter would….. after all we have news scouts everywhere these days and local papers who are very keen on anyone denouncing their fellow citizens to get a story out of it…..

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

A good summary, @Mooney_Driver.

To be fair, my understanding is that the requirement for a Flugleiter to be present during AD operations is written into German law and goes back to pre-wartime. Perhaps a German member can confirm or correct. Writing something into law is easy. Deleting it can be excruciatingly difficult.

LSZK, Switzerland
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