I think this has been largely solved with DPF filters, no? My 11 year old VW has that.
Nope. My observation is if late model diesels are the slightest bit out of tune, they smoke under acceleration.
Try riding the GRA around Rome and get back to me on this 
Or maybe the A1 from Firenze to Bologna in dense traffic.
(Italy took the diesel bait faster and harder than almost anywhere else, and they like to accelerate)
Silvaire wrote:
you can dance around it all you want but there is a reason why older cars have risen in value predictably and consistently since the 80s
It’s the same thing with houses, only to a much larger extent. Boats, the same. And of course aircraft. If you want a cheap newish car that does the job, this is no more difficult today than before. If you don’t want that, then it’s not really a car in itself you are looking for, it’s something else. You want something more, and very few new cars will give you that, and one reason is that they are new. Old cars from the 70s won’t solve any transportation problems, there’s just way too few of them.
The top seller new car in Norway in 2022 was the Tesla Model Y. Second, the VW ID.4 and third the Scoda Enyaq. Still, the most sold (and purchased) car in Norway ever (new and used) is the Volvo 240 series. They stopped producing that when? 40 years ago? Today you don’t see many of them on the road, it’s mostly something people have to drive on sunny summer days. In a way (sort of) the Volvo 240 was the pinnacle of cars. Many people believe that nothing better was produced after it. Can we believe those people? NO All things considered though, a Volvo 240 is one of the very few cars you could have all your life. Not many of those around. The 240 was considered a very good car in it’s time also. That quality is not very interesting for most people though.
Another car which was not considered a very good car in it’s time was the Lada Niva. A small 4 wd from Russia. Perhaps it’s still made, not sure. Today though, it is one of those cars that people want and are willing to pay real money to get. I guess it’s also one of those cars you could have all your life after all, despite being old fashioned and poor quality already when it first came out.
Silvaire wrote:
@LeSving, you can dance around it all you want but there is a reason why older cars have risen in value predictably and consistently since the 80s. It’s become difficult to buy anything interesting pre-1974 for below say $50K, and prices continue to rise.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the government. Prices have risen because people have an affection for these old cars, and that’s it. They are worse in every respect compared to a modern car.
Consider my Honda Civic versus my first car, an 850cc Mini (which was old when I bought it – for £20). People will pay thousands for a 1969 Mk.2 Mini these days, at least the ones that didn’t rust out (nearly all of them did). But I doubt I’d get £1k for my Honda Civic.
But the Civic is better in every single respect. It has the same fuel economy as the Mini, but more than twice the power. It isn’t susceptible to water spray getting into the distributor. It doesn’t rust. It carries a lot more stuff (for instance, I got pretty much an entire band’s equipment in the back of the Civic no problems). It’s comfortable to drive for hours. If I crash it, I’m much more likely to walk away without a scratch.
So why is the original Mini so valuable? It’s not the government, it’s because people are nostalgic, the car is an iconic design, and nearly all of them rusted out so there are few good examples left. Why are Morris Marinas selling for £6000 despite being truly dreadful cars? People are nostalgic for them or want a hobby. People spending millions on classic cars (e.g. one of a kind Ferraris and the like) aren’t doing it because of the government (and those cars would have picked up that value even if there were no regulations on cars).
Anything from bygone times will tend to pick up value. Old computers pick up value and the government hasn’t banned those.
LeSving wrote:
The top seller new car in Norway in 2022 was the Tesla Model Y
Have to add. The Tesla Y actually broke the previous record for best selling car model in a year. The previous record was from 1969 with the VW Beetle
This has absolutely nothing to do with the government.
I disagree completely as I’ve repeatedly mentioned, but it may be more prevalent locally than in someplace like UK or Norway. Apart from the fact that the local climate does not destroy vehicles (the ‘99 car I’ll be driving again today looks like new, including the underside) older cars as with any motorcycles here require no periodic government inspections whatsoever and can be modified in any way you’d like. They are much easier to own in that way, have lasting value as a result, and so they have become a long term investment to the market. Much like old
planes and old houses, which we also expect to be maintainable forever.
This is also true to a lesser extent in places like Germany, where government inspection and configuration control on cars is otherwise subject to a bizarre and Byzantine process. I believe the secret there is that the car has to have been made before cars had aircraft-like legally binding type certificates.
If government were to try essentially outlawing sale of all new vehicles that have useful range, you can bet that this trend would accelerate. I can guarantee you 101% that I will never be without a car that can be driven for up to 14 hours in a day, at motorway speed. If it’s 50 years old so be it. The car I’m driving today is already 24 years old.
I really seriously doubt the fact a classic car doesn’t need an inspection has material impact to its value. I know a number of classic car owners in the UK (where also no government inspection is needed, nor car tax) and not one of them would say “I really value this car because it doesn’t need an inspection”. They value it because of its form, nostalgia, and hobby (tinkering) value. The lack of an MoT is a benefit but it’s not the reason people buy classic cars nor is it the reason that a 1979 Morris Marina sells for £6k. Anyone who wants just to drive will also find a modern car far easier to own. A 2007 Civic might need an annual inspection (MoT) in the UK, but it will be 100 times more reliable and 100 times easier to own than a 1979 Morris Marina that doesn’t (and 1000 times easier to own and more reliable than a classic supercar which were cantankerous even when new).
But even now people tinker with newer Honda Civics, I see modified ones on the road around here all the time – far more than I see classic cars modified or not.
alioth wrote:
I really seriously doubt the fact a classic car doesn’t need an inspection has material impact to its value.
Again, I disagree. It is a huge issue with everybody I know who has classic cars – and that is a lot of people and a lot of cars. Cars that pre-date inspection requirements are more valuable and easier to sell even when they are the exact same model. Also as I mentioned in many countries it goes beyond the need for safety or emissions inspections themselves, the issue is what it takes to pass them. That often means parts government certified by model for that car, no modifications from standard without an elaborate approval process and so on. In places like that its a big mess that nobody wants to take on if they can avoid it.
My overall point (again) is nothing to do with the merits of some mundane POS like the Morris Marina (or Austin Marinas as they were BTW marketed for three years in the US ) It is to do with the very real reaction of people when they are faced with excessive and limiting regulation. They find a way around it, if they can. The same will be true if/when EVs are mandated by regulation.
Having no requirement for a periodic inspection is a nice bonus.
What I really like about my 1972 car is that I can repair (or replace) absolutely anything on it myself with no special tools or equipment that might be hard to lay my hands on. Additionally, I fully understand just about every part of it. Even if parts became unavailable (which isn’t likely), most would be very easy to fabricate somehow. Long-term (decades) owner maintenance on modern cars is a non-starter for most people, due to the complexity and reliance on modern electronics. I certainly wouldn’t be able to do it.
I remember a prior discussion on here where I discovered that in Germany you can’t fit a part to your car unless it’s been formally approved for fitment to that model. Absolutely crazy. I can make my own parts for my car and fit them without being answerable to anyone – whether that is to gain some improvement, because the parts available are poor quality or hard to find, or whatever other reason – I value that.
I think in the future, as it becomes harder to operate outside the consumer bubble with more modern equipment, I’ll come to value that even more. My 1972 car is a convertible, and I’m considering acquiring a saloon car of the same era for increased utility and in case I eventually find the need for a daily driver that sits outside of the modern system.
alioth wrote:
A 2007 Civic might need an annual inspection (MoT) in the UK, but it will be 100 times more reliable and 100 times easier to own than a 1979 Morris Marina that doesn’t (and 1000 times easier to own and more reliable than a classic supercar which were cantankerous even when new).But even now people tinker with newer Honda Civics, I see modified ones on the road around here all the time – far more than I see classic cars modified or not.
That depends on how you view things.
The 2007 Civic will certainly do more miles between problems than the 1979 Marina, but when it does have a problem you’ll probably need to pay someone (who’s skills and equipment may not be around for ever) to fix it and you’ll probably depend on a supply of parts (which you can’t fabricate yourself) that may not be produced for much longer.
Newer Honda Civics and the like are ‘tinkered with’ on a consumer level, no more. Aftermarket exhaust, alloys, body kits, shocks, lowering, chipping, etc. It’s not really the same as long-term owner maintenance without reliance on consumer-orientated goods and services.
I remember a prior discussion on here where I discovered that in Germany you can’t fit a part to your car unless it’s been formally approved for fitment to that model. Absolutely crazy. I can make my own parts for my car and fit them without being answerable to anyone – whether that is to gain some improvement, because the parts available are poor quality or hard to find, or whatever other reason – I value that.
This depends on when type approved. For example my Lexus Soarer (1995) could have had just about anything installed. But my VW Scirocco (2012) was not type approved (in Germany or EU) for a towbar or a roofrack so if I attached one, it will fail the MOT. Technically illegal to drive, too.
So driving old cars has many advantages, but the really old ones are money and time consumers on an epic scale.
