People don’t buy classic cars out of ideology. People buy classic cars because they are nostalgic and want to relive their youth or they want a hobby.
People don’t buy 50 year old $1M cars because they want a hobby, or to relive their youth. They buy them because they represent something of value that they perceive is gone from production and will never return, and that with supply now being zero people will want them more in the future. They are investments and I think they are right in many cases. There are some that will decrease in value when buyers are too young to remember when they were new (this one comes to mind) but many others will hold their value when everybody who was alive when they were new is gone.
The same will apply to newer and more prosaic (say $50 or $100K) gasoline cars if they are legislated out of production, just as it’s been for certified new plane types. They will be kept and they will hold their value. This will particularly be true if they continue to have capability that cannot be matched by anything that can be newly manufactured.
I do recall BTW when diesels were pushed by government though lower fuel prices, with those lower prices created by tax policy. I was traveling in Italy a great deal then and it was surely a ‘thing’. I also remember the reaction when having created a very high level of market penetration for the stinky things, by memory something like 70% (?) the price of diesel fuel magically rose above that for gasoline by enough that it was now cheaper to buy and drive a gasoline car. Nobody except maybe me was happy. My thought was that at least European cities wouldn’t be choked with soot forever, and that maybe I woudn’t have to smell them as often when trailing on my motorcycle, half a kilometer behind on a country road. The latter is no exaggeration.
Silvaire wrote:
The latter is no exaggeration.
But it’s certainly not correct. The first generation of turbodiesels did create lots of black smoke when the pedal was pushed to the floor (due to all mechanical systems), but with newer generations that was gone.
Besides I wonder where exactly taxes on diesel fuel were higher than those on gasoline.
Silvaire wrote:
They buy them because they represent something of value that they perceive is gone and will never return
It’s the same with all antiquated stuff. Be it a car or a sofa. Value can mean different things. For cars there are three types of values typically.
A 50 year old car has only affection value, and with enough “affectionate” people this creates a demand that is in no relation to any utility value that may or may not be left in it. It’s simply a nice piece of junk that gain a life on its own regarding “value”. New cars also have a great deal of affection value of course.
To commute to work, you simply want something that just works and creates as little grief as possible. That’s is one of the great things with EVs (except Tesla and a few other that hardly work at all) They just work, and are fun and easy to drive.
Value means somebody will pay you money to own it. High value means somebody will pay you a lot of money to own it. It’s simple stuff.
I remember not so long ago stopping on passes to let the diesel smell subside before continuing. Pre-turbo diesels were for sure worse, but I’m talking within the last five years and new cars…. Other times I’d pass them instead of stopping. I’m happy they are slowly going away.
We’ve been through the diesel soot and stench discussion before and the conclusion I reached was that unless you’re outside and on the road, you don’t notice it. That’s why it was tolerated for so long, to the degree it was in Europe. Nowadays it’s surely the motivation for discouraging cars in European urban areas, along with the tax revenue generated by allowing a few to pay to enter, where that applies.
I also remember being on the A1 heading to Milano not long after hearing that my experience was “incorrect”, pulling out to pass in formation with a late model BMW and being pummeled with smoke as he floored it. I didn’t like the smoke but it did make me smile 
A huge number of diesel trucks on the road doesn’t help either as they are even worse, regardless of where they are.
Silvaire wrote:
Value means somebody will pay you money to own it.
That is one meaning — there are others. Of particular relevance to this discussion is #4 here.
I think #1 and #4 generally correlate pretty closely, and of course that was my point. People will continue to pay for what is intrinsically valuable, and probably market price will rise when it is forced out of production by government. The examples I provided supported the point.
People with resources are smarter about what is intrinsically valuable than government, that’s how they got the resources, and they will continue to be so. Hopefully if you’re exceptionally smart in a particular area you can buy that value before them, but in the end the market catches up. Government meanwhile continues to go around in aimless circles, diesels are going away, EVs are their new blinkered priority, who knows what will be next.
Silvaire wrote:
diesels are going away
Exactly what harm has Diesel done to you ? Diesels are definitely not going away anytime soon. They may disappear from most personal cars, but so may also the otto engine. Even a turbine is a diesel engine thermodynamically
Silvaire wrote:
Value means somebody will pay you money to own it
Not in my mind, not only that. A car may be worthless (not a single person will pay you money to take it, other than a token amount), but still have lots of utility value for you. You have this car right now. It takes you to work, it takes you to any shop you need, and carries all the stuff you need to carry. You know what is wrong with it, and you know those things don’t really matter and will destroy the value it has if you fix them. Nothing you can do can replace the utility value the car represents without you paying a whole lot for another car. In essence, the car represents the best value you can possible get, but it does so only for as long as it lasts. In other words, not a single person will pay you enough money for your car so you can replace it with something of equal or more utility value right now. This is the main reason why people stick with their old cars. It does the job just fine, and there is no reason why it shouldn’t continue to do so for an additional year.
If we are going into antiques, this is more like fashion and art. Some see it as an expression of style or personality, other as investments. Most people see it as an extravagant form of vanity and/or affection. It’s very little utility value about this stuff today. I mean no one in their right mind will purchase a 1950 Mercedes sport car and use it to commute to work for as long as it lasts, then throw it away
Thanks @172driver for that H2 article. I knew that the stuff is very abundant in the universe but no idea it could be just below our feet in great quantities. Hope this comes to something and that it’s well distributed so that we don’t become dependent again on shady regimes to a large extent. @Lesving, I may hope there would not be any in your neck of the woods, you’ve had more than your fair share of a windfall 
But thanks for the billions to UKR.
Modern diesel cars are excellent. Nice to drive, with a wide power band. Very fast; great for overtaking. Petrol engines have to be revved hard for the same perf. My 2 litre VW outperforms any 2 litre patrol car I ever had, or drove.
Cheap to run, cheap to service. Anybody can service it.
In low usage, fillup once a month. Yes – once a month.
Particulates are a problem but only in towns.
No alternative to diesel for trucks, in the foreseeable future.
Particulates are a problem but only in towns.
I doubt you’ve breathed as much particulates on the open road as I have. I have ended vacations wheezing from it, although admittedly a lot of that came from being in European cities as well as from motorways, traffic down valleys etc. Try riding a motorcycle in the summer through the Valtellina around the Sondrio bypass road some time and tell me if you still see it that way
@LeSving, you can dance around it all you want but there is a reason why older cars have risen in value predictably and consistently since the 80s. It’s become difficult to buy anything interesting pre-1974 for below say $50K, and prices continue to rise. I used to doubt the long term investment potential but with government intrusion now accelerating to previously unimagined levels, I’m becoming more convinced, even with regard to some gasoline cars that have yet to be built.
There always will be throwaway cars like my own series of drivers, but if EVs really do become mandated the ones that aren’t throwaways are going to hold their value. I’m BTW driving a 1999 car today that has risen in value since I bought it in 2011
Cars are becoming more like planes.
I think this has been largely solved with DPF filters, no? My 11 year old VW has that.
But the business moves in fashion waves, and gets heavily distorted by govt incentives. For example I pay about 200 quid road tax, whereas Justine pays 30 quid. The difference is a different ECU map and I have a bigger turbo She gets 8 mpg more.
