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Would you be interested in Traffic and Weather all at the same time on Skydemon or other EFB?

If there was a unit that had the following capabilities would you buy one?

Receives the following and can display them on Skydemon (and potential other market leaders too)

  • GPS Location
  • Traffic:
    • P3I: from PilotAware equipped aircraft.
    • ADS-B: from an ADS-B Out transponder
    • Mode-C: from a Mode C transponder
    • Mode-S: from a Mode S transponder
  • FLARM: From a FLARM transceiver*When in range of an OGN-R transceiver
  • Weather:
    • Radar Weather (cloud and rainfall)
    • METARs
    • TAFs

And can do the following in an companion App on the same tablet

  • Weather:
  • * Other data such as Lighetning, Infrared
  • Communications:
  • * Onboard SMS and Email
Last Edited by marioair at 28 May 16:21

Mode-C: from a Mode C transponder
Mode-S: from a Mode S transponder

With azimuth and distance?

How much initially, and how funded in the long run?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Sounds very similar to sky echo to me… how does it differ?

EGBJ and Firs Farm, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

With azimuth and distance?

For Mode-S, at least in Pilot Aware one can have Mode-S/3D on the beta version (no coverage in south/east of London, I may buy an install an antenna for myself but not with today “5G corona climate” )

For Mode-C, yes a shame but I am assuming it is the slow 70kts traffic behind when I am doing 170kts under LTMA…

Last Edited by Ibra at 28 May 17:37
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

in Pilot Aware one can have Mode-S/3D on the beta version (no coverage in south/east of London,

How does that work?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

QuotePeter wrote:

Mode-C: from a Mode C transponder
Mode-S: from a Mode S transponder

With azimuth and distance?

How much initially, and how funded in the long run?

Similar to PilotAware functionality – Bearingliness Targerts and ModeS3D
@peter how much would you pay?
As a comparison:

PilotAware ~ £210 ex VAT
ADL Golze ~ £674 ex VAT
Skyecho ~ £415 ex VAT

NicR wrote:

Sounds very similar to sky echo to me… how does it differ?

More traffic types supported c.f. skyecho, plus you get weather and SMS and email

Last Edited by marioair at 28 May 18:07

Peter wrote:

How does that work?

You need secondary radar to interrogate the traffic Mode-S for ID & ALT and 3*OGN stations at 50km to fix it’s position and broadcast it, still work-under-progress with few limitations: the other traffic has to be in CTR/CTA min surveillance radar altitudes and you need few ground stations around, obviously not “TCAS grade” but about the same use as OCAS traffic services with more freedom on your altitude, especially if you are landing elsewhere…

https://pilotaware.com/Documents/Mode-S3D-Introduction-FINAL.pdf?_t=1561197743

Last Edited by Ibra at 28 May 18:15
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Bearingliness Targerts and ModeS3D

Mode S is not “3D” unless radiating GPS data, which almost no light GA does.

Bearingless targets is near-useless. There are / have been countless boxes which do this. Getting range from signal strength is near-useless because you can’t tell between a crappy transponder installation (really common in GA, and anyone with TAS/TCAS immediately finds out) which is 1nm away, and a good one which is 10nm away.

@peter how much would you pay?
As a comparison:
PilotAware ~ £210 ex VAT
ADL Golze ~ £674 ex VAT
Skyecho ~ £415 ex VAT

What are the ongoing costs?

I have the ADL150 which gives me reliable wx anywhere in Europe and at any altitude. It was about 500 quid and costs roughly €25/month.

For traffic I have a TAS605 which shows Mode C/S, bearing, distance and relative altitude, worldwide. 13k installation, zero ongoing cost.

So I am not a customer for this, because it would be a downgrade for me.

We have several threads on the various devices that exist / have existed – eg. here. Most don’t have a business model for ongoing services especially if involving ground stations (weather or re-radiated traffic data, basically) so it is a “never never” thing where you hope to be for ever selling more boxes to fund the support costs for the existing users. Then there are the wx transmit stations which Garmin have pulled out of, declaring it totally unviable, but some still carry on with them, funding it as a PR effort from tablet software subscriptions, but this is for light GA which flies low enough to more or less always get 4G and that undermines the business model because if you can get internet you can get anything you want for free. The business is stuffed between 4G data (which is free to all so nobody can make money out of valued added service delivery) and Iridium (which is expensive in hardware and subscription so you get money only from the IFR community). And such a small % of light GA of the sort you are actually likely to bump into e.g. low level flyers is radiating anything. Finally, UK GA is famously tight as the proverbial, which plays against widespread adoption of anything, but without widespread adoption this is not going anywhere.

Sorry to pour cold water on this but I think this whole business is eventually going to collapse, once people realise they are seeing a tiny % of the traffic at best. And any project which involves data retransmission by ground stations will collapse too, unless it is so local (Skydemon funded?) that it is useful just for UK burger runs.

I also predict the EC scene to get crippled by the new CAA initiative to bust 100% of infringers. People already turn off their transponder (or set it to Mode A) and radiating any form of ADS-B is in the same category, especially as it is trivial to monitor the transmissions from just one location in the UK and instantly compare against an airspace database, and flag infringers for a “closer look” on ATC radar. Basically, with ADS-B OUT, GA is delivering a self funded CAIT package to the CAA

Mandatory ADS-B would be a game changer in terms of adoption % but it would likely be certified and of a cost at least as much as a Mode S transponder (because it needs a W GPS).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Mode S is not “3D” unless radiating GPS data, which almost no light GA does.

Apologies – I was referring to the PaW term: https://pilotaware.com/modes3d/

What are the ongoing costs?

he business is stuffed between 4G data (which is free to all so nobody can make money out of valued added service delivery) and Iridium (which is expensive in hardware and subscription so you get money only from the IFR community)

  • Core features similar to PilotAware
  • Weather features based on availability of Celluar or Ground station reception IF available
  • Weather features based on satellite data IF above not available (add on cost pay as you go extra)
  • Intention to switch over to TIS/FIS/UAT if/when it happens
  • all in a single box – less cables, less apps etc

Finally, UK GA is famously tight as the proverbial, which plays against widespread adoption of anything, but without widespread adoption this is not going anywhere

Your site is EURO Ga isn’t it :-)

I also predict the EC scene to get crippled by the new CAA initiative to bust 100% of infringers. People already turn off their transponder (or set it to Mode A) and radiating any form of ADS-B is in the same category, especially as it is trivial to monitor the transmissions from just one location in the UK and instantly compare against an airspace database, and flag infringers for a “closer look” on ATC radar. Basically, with ADS-B OUT, GA is delivering a self funded CAIT package to the CAA

Mandatory ADS-B would be a game changer in terms of adoption % but it would likely be certified and of a cost at least as much as a Mode S transponder (because it needs a W GPS).

Yeah this would be a perverse own goals for the authorities wouldn’t it. I liken it to the COVID pandamic and wearing a mask being mostly for the benefit of others. Until there’s a proper just-culture then people will abuse/mis-use/switch off technology

marioair wrote:

Weather features based on availability of Celluar or Ground station reception IF available

Which is completely useless for any serious touring.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia
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