Airborne_Again wrote:
Any comments from our German/Swiss/Austrian posters?
It is known that people who follow the teachings of Anthroposophy and followers of Rudolf Steiner are more commonly prone to be critical towards vaccinations. Likewise there have been a lot of critical voices about homeopathy, blaming those who believe in it’s usefulness for being anti vaxxers and spreading incertitude.
I happen to know some people who follow Antroposphy and some others, unrelated, who are homeopaths. To my knowledge, all those I know are vaccinated, respectively were vaccinated early on, with one exception of a friend who lives in the UK. There has been reports that the community of Dornach, which is known for it’s Goetheanum (the center of the Antroposophic philosophy) had a larger number of cases for a while. Other than that, the issue has not come up here in Switzerland but I am aware that in Germany, there have been quite a few news stories blaming Antrophosophs and homeopaths for spreading FUD about vaccinations.
It is not exactly new that the media are trying to assign blame onto groups they are traditionally critical about so I take these accusations with a grain of salt. It is well known that homeopathy is very often criticized quite vocally. Antroposophy is maybe less in the minds of the general public and therefore most people don’t know much about it and frankly, neither do I apart from the people I know who practice it. So it would not surprise me if for some, a maybe more pronounced scepticism of those two pretty unrelated groups towards vaccinations may have lead to a welcome reason to attack them. This kind of slagging “unwanted” groups in such situations is not exactly unknown and neither is finding scapegoats.
In Switzerland I would think that both of these groups have little or no influence on the anti vaxxer / anti measurement movements, which are rather rooted in a right wing extremist as well as generally government critical group of population. As I said, those I know who practice either have been vaccinated.
Those whom I know being fiercely anti vaxxers do not belong to either group but are rather of the “this can’t hit me, I am young, healthy, exercise and never ill” fraction as well as people rabidly against government. Several of them have had to bear the consequences of their reluctance by now.
Airborne_Again wrote:
E.g. it was claimed that medical insurance in Germany generally will pay for homeopatic treatments.
Unfortunately, this is true. Homeopathy is a huge market and it often has replaced grandma’s household remedies. Thankfully most people use it only against minor diseases like common cold or warts and still visit a real doctor when they get seriously ill. But there is also an alarming number of people who instead of going to the doctor will visit a Heilpraktiker (sharlatan who must pass an exam and is then allowed to treat patients with all kinds of questionable methods and substances and is required by law only to not harm the patient) of whom a good part thinks they can heal Covid with some cake sprinkles called Globuli. The other part is aware that this makes for bad publicity in the current times and encourages people to get a vaccination.
Adding to that, I don’t believe that these people make up the majority of the anti-vaxxers. It is just one aspect if the phenomenon just like general distrust in authorities and science, 5G, lack of education or probably 99 percent of the time simple misunderstandings. But is a well known group of people with an established name so it was only logical for politicians and the press to blame them after it was clear that the low vaccination rate couldn’t be explained with conspiracy theorists alone.
Airborne_Again wrote:
German-speaking countries. E.g. it was claimed that medical insurance in Germany generally will pay for homeopatic treatments.
It is a difficult and very emotional question – and there is little data available for that. But generally speaking there are at least indications that this is true.
It might be a coincidence (as always with correlations) but it can be observed that vaccination rates are particularly low in regions where we see the highes density of anthroposophical schools (and in the Nazi regions of eastern Germany).
Indeed, Germany does a lot to ensure that many people believe that homeopathy is actual medicine. Beyond the already stated fact that health insurers reimburse (and they are explicitly excluded from the requirement to prove efficacy that is in place for all “other” drugs), there is also an official education curriculum for medical doctors and homeopathic remedies are treated as real drugs and therefore must not be sold outside pharmacies (and yes: In Germany you go into jail for drug trafficking if you try to enter Germany with more than your personal supply of homeopathic sugar balls).
The case of France banning the Brits temporarily is simply down to messaging coming out of the UK not anti Brit as some would like you to believe. Blame it on the French seems to be the thing keeping this UK government in power. When the Omicron varient started to appear in Europe, France like many other countries, vastly increased its testing.
Like the UK we have seen a huge spike in positive cases up to some 60,000+. The majority of these are the Delta varient although around 200 cases of the Omicron varient have been found. This huge rise in Delta variant added to the way Omicron is known to spread is likely to put great stress on the French health service.
The UK is already seeing a huge spread in Omicron so the French Government has decided that it can buy some time to get booster jabs into more people and also to spread the demand on the French health service at least by one or 2 weeks by trying to stop it coming over from the UK and adding to our own spread.
Many here think that is a sensible idea in the lead up to Christmas.
The omicron outbreak on the Christmas party has been analyzed in detail.
111 attendents in total. 98 % were fully vaccinated (two dozes with Pfizer or Moderna). 74% got corona, 60% with omicron, the rest with delta. No one got very sick. At most a fever. Those with Moderna seems to be better protected than those with Pfizer, but too small numbers to say for certain.
Anyway, the believe that vaccines protect against infection (and in that way also protect against the spread of the virus) is just nonsense. It seems to me everyone gets infected, but the symptoms are often mild or nonexistent. But I mean, that is also the case for corona in general, without vaccines, for most people at least. Protecting against spreading? certainly NOT. It’s the opposite that will happen. Vaccinated people carry the virus around, spreading it to everyone in the vicinity. This goes on for days. The only thing the vaccines do is to protect the individual from getting real sick. This is of course excellent, but the notion that the vaccines will “stop corona” simply has no root in reality.
My wife got her third shot yesterday. This time she chose Moderna. Two with Pfizer, one with Moderna. I think I will do the same, even though she feels really sick today (typical fly symptoms).
Homeopathy does work, because the placebo effect is powerful. With some drugs, placebo can be measured at 30%. It is actually a scandal in the pharma business that some expensive drugs are only 10-20 percentage points better than placebo, but a dying man will pay any money for an extra day of life…
the symptoms are often mild or nonexistent = success!
There is nothing new in that report from Le Sving.
Eighty-nine percent of the respondents (n = 99) had received two doses of mRNA vaccines. None reported having received a booster dose.
We’ve known now for a week or two that 2 doses provides little to no protection against infection with Omicron. That’s why there is such a rush for booster doses, which apparently are providing about 70% protection against infection with Omicron. Not as much protection as with Delta, but a very beneficial level.
I don’t think it’s two doses of vaccine that are ineffective, it’s that the efficacy of the most recent dose is time limited to an uncertain degree, no?
Assuming a limited period of efficacy for the booster shot as well, my main interest in it would be to ensure compliance with European national regulations restricting normal individual behavior, for a period that would include any visit within 2022. Most European bureaucracies have apparently decided that the legal period of efficacy for CV-19 shots is 9 months, which means the most effective time for me to get the booster would be April 2022, given the potential for a visit for the holidays a year from now. The newest variant is apparently more benign and so far I see no particular reason for me to get a booster shot with only a few months of efficacy other than the (irrational but factual) legal restriction that may continue to apply for entry to restaurants etc in Europe.
The other alternate is to avoid Europe in 2022 and see how things progress. Beyond 2022, if the European path forward includes the concept that life in that part of the world will require booster shots every 9 months and showing periodically expiring vaccine passes to enter restaurants, stores etc for the foreseeable future, I believe my choice will be to stay away from Europe indefinitely until the CV phenomenon fades away naturally, both medically and politically, or that there’s a popular revolution against any such nonsense.
LeSving wrote:
It seems to me everyone gets infected, but the symptoms are often mild or nonexistent.
Well – BINGO! That’s the whole point of a vaccine (any vaccine, for that matter) that it provides protection for the vaccinated individual.
There is also the argument (tbc – I am not an immunologist) that the fact that you only get mild symptoms (if any) means that your viral load is a lot less, which, in turn, makes you a less effective spreader.
So – if everyone is vaccinated this whole sorry saga becomes nothing more than the common cold or, at worst, a mild case of flu.
LeSving wrote:
But I mean, that is also the case for corona in general, without vaccines, for most people at least.
Suggest you tell that to my GF – no fewer than nine (!) of her friends and colleagues have died from Covid so far.
