Climate change

Peter wrote:

That’s a very interesting angle, and deals with the radiator area needed for a heat pump. What does the wall look like? Just a flat panel?

In fact my walls consist of a loam-filled wooden construction, and the tubing was set just into the wet loam. So in the end you don’t see nothing of the heating at all, just that the walls are warm. No panels. In German it’s called “Lehmwandheizung” (loam-wall radiator?). I’ve put enough tubes all around that we can go down typically to as low as 21-22°C for the heating water.

When a secondary school was built at Linacleit on the Scottish Western Islands, it was heated by a heat pump. Because it was exposed to salt air, marine specification components were used. In a few years it was replaced by fossil fuel heating due to corrosion problems.
I need a new gas boiler. But our Scottish Government is threatening to tax gas to make it uncompetitive. And to replace methane with hydrogen, which is a better escape artist.
And my windows are salt caked after the present north winds, which doesn’t augur well for heat pumps.
If many go for woodstoves, there will be a shortage of wood.
For me at age 80, the only good news is the Church’s assurance of a place with apparently unlimited eco-friendly heat for my future.

skydriller wrote:

Its not just Sea Eagles apparently:

“Windmills affect how Reindeer behave

They actually won in supreme court against the wind turbines at Fosen at the coast by me (just north of ENOL). They have put up several GW of wind tubines 1-2 years ago and now they won in court. All the turbines are illegal. A fantastic display of local county government, governmental agencies and German industry showing the finger to rights that have existed for as long as anyone can remember. But, I guess this will also eventually be a display of there is nothing that cannot be solved with money It’s not like those turbines will be dismantled anytime soon. With enough compensation I’m sure the reindeer will live happy lives between the turbines

refers to a “real wooden floor” so a wood construction of the entire underground without concrete below it.

Had this in my parent’s house growing up with hot water floor heating. The term was „swimm-able floor“ (sic). Probably not very efficient due to the air gap, but
I like it as there is a nice dampening effect when walking, while the cement-hardwood floor that’s prevailing now is like walking on concrete (the wood floor layer is glued on cement to avoid air gaps and pass the heat on without loss).

In some countries this would refer to a thin (e.g. 3-5mm) wood layer on a concrete floor (where the tubing for the heating really is).

This is what I have now and it’s pretty much the standard in Austria all around. Low heat underfloor water heating (35-45°C). More efficient, less (as in very hard surface) walking comfort. And cheaper than above. Homebuilders gotta make a profit too. Also seen in wrapping houses with thick styrofoam boards for insulation (plastic crap).

Snoopy wrote:

In some countries this would refer to a thin (e.g. 3-5mm) wood layer on a concrete floor (where the tubing for the heating really is).

This is what I have now and it’s pretty much the standard in Austria all around.

Interesting how building practices differ! I would say that in Sweden it is would be very unusual (if it happens at all) to glue such a thin wood layer directly on concrete. Normally you would have much thicker wood (at least 7 mm, more likely something like 13 mm), you would have a damping layer of e.g. foam plastic between the concrete and the wood and you would not glue the wood in place.

I don’t think you would glue a 3-5mm wood layer onto “concrete”, simply because you could not get the concrete smooth/level enough. The only way would be to level it with some liquid substance; here they sometimes use a 2-pack epoxy-like resin for that purpose.

And yes whether the wood is glued, or just lying there on top of a layer of felt or some such, depends on how much you are paying I don’t think many people are paying for parquet floors today. My house had one, from 1963. Most wooden floors today are about 10-15mm thick interlocking planks, and the installer hopes that over time the floor will settle down flat and not just float slightly above

I would think underfloor heating would need a glued floor, because any air gap would block the heat transfer.

A big part of the problem is that people are sold systems which are way too small. They want to be “green” so they think this is all pure magic and heat pumps are working off the earth’s graviational field. If your house needed 20kW from a gas boiler, it will need 20kW from a heat pump. And that is a really big heat pump, especially once you allow for the reduction in COP at low ambient temps, or in humid air (lots of evaporator icing) which drives a huge hole through the data sheet. Looking at the ones I have been involved with, an air source heat pump would be about 1m x 1m x 2m. The input would be around 10kW. They can be found single-phase but most in that power range are three-phase.

Are people on the mainland installing 20kW heat pumps? If not, these systems must be going into specially built energy-efficient houses.

Airborne_Again wrote:

Interesting how building practices differ!

Indeed. There are several different wooden floors. The three main types here are:

• Pergo (Originally a brand name I think), but it’s some relatively thin and flexible wooden fiber with a super thin layer of wood or some durable synthetic stuff on top. It’s extremely durable, easy to lay (interlocking), and is always laid as a floating, on top of a thin layer of foam or paper felt. It is also the cheapest “wooden” floor you can get, so it is considered a bit simple (typically not used in the main living room unless cheaping out). This floor is cold and hard, and very suitable for underfloor heating.
• Parquette. The traditional good looking wooden floor. Typically about 10-15 mm thick or more. Laid in the same manner as Pergo, but glued to each other (no interlocking mechanism).
• Furugulv (Pine wood floor). Pine wood mostly, but could be other types of wood as well. It’s thin planks of pure untreated wood, 15-30 mm, and laid out pretty much as parquette, floating and glued together Typically used in bedrooms as the wood feels warm and soft to walk on.

Then there are also the more traditional (ancient) thick wooden planks, but these are seldom built in new houses. I can’t remember hearing/seeing about wooden floors being glued to the underlying surface. Under any one of these you could have heated floor I guess, but I can’t imagine you can have very high temp on natural wood, hardly anything above ambient room temp. Pine wood floors are never heated AFAIK, but I guess you could.

The pine wood flooring would have to be well weathered if you want to put any sort of heating, under it, otherwise it will dry out and warp.

Funny, sold my house on Friday. Moving to another house closer to the city center. Some wood working is needed there and a whole no shop to build aircraft in. I’m a bit “into this” stuff ATM. In the old house we have a mix of everything.

• Tiles (heated) in both bathrooms and the ground floor corridor/main door area,
• Concrete floor treated with some polycarbon oil thing in the shop (strange oil/paint stuff that diffuse into the concrete)
• Pergo on three rooms (used to be pine wood)
• Pine wood floor on one room.
• Parquette in living room, kitchen and a bit upstairs
• Mats on two rooms

The only heated floors are tiled, and all of the tiled floors are heated. Other heating is electric ovens and two wooden fireplaces. I use about 35-40k kWh per year. The electricity cost about € 0.05 per kWh.

The new house is a bit older. I have to refurbish lots of it, but will do that over time. There the entire base floor has floor heating, and is covered in mats and tiles.The first floor is a mix of parquette and vinyl. It also has two wooden fireplaces and electric heating, but also an air/air heat pump. Not sure if I’l use the sledge hammer on that heat pump or not

My initial plan is to rip out the mats in the base floor, as well as the old tiles and use a mix of pergo and tiles. Or perhaps a mix of tiles and mats. I have no intentions of using wooden floor on the heated floor. On the first floor there will be new parquette in the living room later on (other places it is fairly new). Then pine floor in the master bed room and another room. Refurbish the bathrooms with new tiles (both bathrooms has already floor heating).

I guess what I’m saying is that when using floor heating, the options are mats, tiles or pergo. Unless, the floor is either in a bathroom kind of room, or the floor is concrete, there will be no floor heating. It makes me wonder about that heated (true) wooden floors. According to recommended practices in Norway, it certainly can, but with lots of caveats. Waterborne heating is highly recommended, electric heating is not. Only very moderate heating, max 27 deg C surface temp. Evenly distributed heat, and as stable a temperature over time as possible (don’t turn off the heat during night for instance). Do not cover parts of the floor with insulating materials, like mats. Sounds too complicated to me I think I will stick with my options.