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National CAA policies around Europe on busting pilots who bust controlled airspace (and danger areas)

Well, yes, normally a pilot in this situation will

  • be a local who knows how to game the broken UK ATC system
  • will be airspace- and DA- / RA-aware
  • will know his FP+clearance etc have been binned so will be proactive, and eventually transition into near-panic as the next bit of CAS approaches

so in reality the situation doesn’t arise much for locals, but it does arise for foreign pilots, but they

  • don’t get busted (the CAA “busts chief” would not dare, in this situation)
  • don’t post it on forums
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@alioth Cardiff will normally advise caution for not infringing Bristol CAS, but unless you were on a Cardiff to Bristol sector they would not be co-ordinating a clearance. Conversely, descending from Q63 Bristol would co-ordinate the entry into Cardiff Class D from the Class A airway.

I do think the thread has raised awareness on building situational awareness if you move from a radar control service (not necessarily radar vectors) to own navigation IFR. Multi pilot crew would brief quite carefully when going off the flight planned route. This would also apply to when you descend on radar vectors below MSA, with the crew monitoring the EGPWS/MFD and the MVA chart. Unfortunately quite a few CRM case studies of the crew losing, or not maintaining SA, and being vectored into terrain.

Oxford (EGTK)

Outside of controlled airspace, one has to retrieve explicit permission to cross a restricted area.

If given clearance in controlled airspace, which in itself contains restricted areas, implicit permission is given to cross such areas unless ATC has explicitly given instructions not to do so.

I don’t remember if it’s SERA or elsewhere, but I’m 99% sure that’s how it works. I have experienced it exactly this way on my flights.

ESME, ESMS

If given clearance in controlled airspace, which in itself contains restricted areas, implicit permission is given to cross such areas unless ATC has explicitly given instructions not to do so.

That’s logical but I am not convinced that is how France operates it. However, there may be a subtle detail: the RA may be surrounded (wholly or partially enclosed) by CAS, and a transit of that CAS is not a transit of the RA. So the debate becomes whether the RA is “in CAS” or whether the CAS stops at the perimeter of the RA.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Dimme wrote:

If given clearance in controlled airspace, which in itself contains restricted areas, implicit permission is given to cross such areas unless ATC has explicitly given instructions not to do so.

I don’t remember if it’s SERA or elsewhere, but I’m 99% sure that’s how it works. I have experienced it exactly this way on my flights.

We all have experienced it that way! The whole point of this discussion is that German ATC has changed that recently and is trying to fine pilots who act as you said – actually already for filing a flight plan that crosses an RA in controlled airspace!

Germany

Malibuflyer wrote:

We all have experienced it that way! The whole point of this discussion is that German ATC has changed that recently and is trying to fine pilots who act as you said – actually already for filing a flight plan that crosses an RA in controlled airspace!

Has that actually happened, or is this just what the DFS implies (in that paper) they might be doing?

Biggin Hill

Cobalt wrote:

Has that actually happened, or is this just what the DFS implies (in that paper) they might be doing?

There are reports in Internet forums by pilots that claim they got busted. As these cases are not published officially before there is a final court ruling (which would take years even if the pilot challenges the fine in front of a court), there is obviously no hard proof that it has actually happened but the reports sound credible.

Germany

Busted by whom? The DFS cannot issue fines, they can only denounce pilots to the authorities.

The awful UK “bust them all” policy is only possible because. The CAA abuses the safety reporting system. Are the DFS issuing MORs on the basis that the flight plan is “unsafe”?

Biggin Hill

Cobalt wrote:

The awful UK “bust them all” policy is only possible because. The CAA abuses the safety reporting system.

AFAIU the UK also have a system where some government authorities – including the CAA – can themselves prosecute without going through the prosecuting authority (Crown Prosecution Service).

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Yes, same in Germany, for lower-level offences the entire prosecution is brought by the relevant authority. AFAIK, the DFS isn’t such an authority (nor are NATS), the actual prosecution is brought by the LBA or the respective state-level aviation authority.

Last Edited by Cobalt at 11 Jun 06:42
Biggin Hill
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