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Germany planning approach fees at non-ATC airports

German AOPA

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How does this work, since Germany already prohibits IFR ops at airports which don’t have IFR procedures. Presumably pilots will just do “DIY VFR”?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The fees apply to all landings, including VFR.

T28
Switzerland

Peter wrote:

How does this work, since Germany already prohibits IFR ops at airports which don’t have IFR procedures. Presumably pilots will just do “DIY VFR”?

I understand it’s for VFR+IFR approach to IFR airport (instrument runway & published procedures) with some “IFR man” in the tower who is not ATC (just AFIS), the DIY IFR approach to VFR airfields with no ATC/AFIS is banned in Germany, if you every get cleared for one it’s for free but the fine is probably expensive

Last Edited by Ibra at 20 Aug 09:12
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

DIY VFR (i.e. doing IMC straight-ins built upon GPS waypoints) does not really work in Germany, cause the Flugleiter will object to that. One, because at most places, you are supposed to fly the circuit and two, if it is all too obvious that the aircraft is flying through IMC, the Flugleiter, which is often also a BfL, might cause you trouble.

Anyway, as T28, said, that is not the point here, as the news is that want to introduce these fees also for VFR aircraft. In fact, most of the AFIS airfields in Germany do already charge IFR approach fees.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

boscomantico wrote:

DIY VFR (i.e. doing IMC straight-ins built upon GPS waypoints) does not really work in Germany, cause the Flugleiter will object to that

Same in UK, it does not work in ATZ with FISO/AG, they can ask you to comply with noise routes, circuits and overhead joins, but nothing prevents you from doing all of that above MSA in IMC before heading again for long straight-in final to land, CAA will not even object to it after receiving an MOR on what you did, but they will surely come after you and fry you alive if you bust any nearby controlled airspace in the making, specially in IMC !

In ATC ATZ,
- IFR ATC, won’t clear you to procedures that are not published
- VFR ATC, won’t let you in/out IFR in ATZ

Also FISO/AG can chose to ignore you RT call when ATZ is in IMC, since 2019 it’s an issue under ATZ Rule11, you need two-way comms and airfield data to enter ATZ, and no point asking them to give you visibility & cloudbase, if you do you probably have no clue what you are doing (first, you should have visbility before you start approach, second, they may not be rated to give that data and third, you could get WX somewhere else, on cloud-break on nearby ILS or some ATIS before going IMC again), long story short, while it’s DIY IAP is legal and some may have some risk apetite for it, they need to go to some grass strips or waypoint outside ATZ or keep DIY VFR on their home airfield (which is sensible after all, as one is familiar with terrain & obstacles around and they may have a fire truck sitting near the runway for them without having to go up to tower to fill up the paperwork on what happened)

Last Edited by Ibra at 20 Aug 09:53
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

@Ibra in the UK that depends a lot on where it is.

Barton ran with that interpretation of Rule 11 (and got CAA support for it) as a means of controlling entry to their ATZ because (a) they were being crapped on by nearby Manchester over airspace busts, and (b) they got an ADSB display which showed them just how busy their area actually is. What they really should have done, if they felt things were becoming too busy, was upgrade to full ATC.

I’m not aware of any other AG/FISO aerodromes guarding access to their ATZ like this, nor would most places report you for making an unofficial cloud break. Most probably don’t care even if you go IMC in the ATZ. There are perhaps a handful of busybody places that might report you because they love reporting stuff, but those places are worth staying away from for a myriad of other reasons.

Sensibly-run places keep to their brief when it comes to AG and AFISO, which is to answer questions if asked but for most part leave aeroplanes in the air to sort themselves out. The ‘Toytown ATC’ AG operator saying “roger, report final” to every call correlates highly with high-viz jackets, long ‘PPR briefings’ and condescending lectures from the residents egos when you arrive.

EGLM & EGTN

10 extra € on each landing ? That will make training even more expensive.

LFOU, France

Graham wrote:

in the UK that depends a lot on where it is

Indeed, some places are very friendly, some are not but also the treatment you get depends if you are based/regular guy or visitor
If it’s marginal weather, any arrivals will get a special reception (assuming someone is around in ATZ tower)

All I am saying is DIY IFR/VFR or scud run VFR/IFR in marginal weather may not go well if goinfg for an ATZ managed by AFIS/AG, this will be just like in Germany with AFIS/Flugleiter/BFL but with one caveat unlike Germany, no one give give a hoot if you are VMC/IMC or VFR/IFR while your wheels are in the air, if you ever get told off one day it’s because you bent something, busted airspace, pissed some noise senstive nighbour or had to deal with some ‘Toytown ATC’ AFIS/AG operator

The FISO/AG operator in theory should not care, what you do in Class G is 100% your own buisness, even “proper ATC” tend to dump you as soon as possible with free call en-route and to go and mind your buisness with zero interest in your case as long as you remain outside controlled airspace (it’s not remain outside clouds), but now if you read the ATZ AIP, it still say “AD VFR only”, that has not changed yet with SERA/NCO, however, in UK with no ATC & ATIS, it’s PIC who decides on his flying rules & flying conditions inside ATZ (if IMC/VMC, if VFR/IFR or fly IFR circle to land, VFR circuit, VFR overhead join, visual IFR approach/circuit, IFR overhead join, PPL VFR bad weather circuit at 500ft, IMCr IFR bad weather circuit bellow OCH/VM(C)H, well you name it…and you have luxury to cancel IFR at 10ft and make it VFR landing without telling anyone, FISO can give you taxi clearances & walking instructions to tower if he wishes, assuming he has enough visibility to see you, he controls ground mouvements after all)

Last Edited by Ibra at 20 Aug 13:57
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Do any German airfields have annual landing cards? If so, there is going to be a €10 charge on top for each landing?

Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom

No landing „cards“ in Germany. Very few have annual flat fees for all landings of the same aircraft.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany
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