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GA Airports around London

“ATCOs resign in a domino if mixed traffic results in dangerous situations.”

If ATCOs allow a dangerous situation, then I’d blame their competence rather than the traffic mix. The rest of the world manages fine. It’s just our sad little island that seems to regard aviation as terribly difficult.

Kent, UK

Yes; the UK has special ways to create “dangerous” situations. For example the way in which 3000ft or 5000ft is added to an infringer’s Mode C ensures that the UK gets way more “loss of separation” incidents and the ATCO is then locked up in a dark room for a couple of hours to recover

But also UK PPL training is poor when it comes to AC interaction. And I am sure this is replicated in other GA communities around Europe, where most flying is local low level OCAS stuff.

Well the airfield that spoke is listed on the public website Timothy so I don’t see much point concealing it.

I can’t find it, but from the “no bizjets” clue it could only be Cranfield, because all the others in the list get loads of bizjets. I haven’t been to Cranfield for years. It was never competently run, with crazy ATC sending traffic from the north to the “Woburn Abbey” VRP which would take another 20 mins at 140kt, and this was purely gratutious… like parking GA on grass when you have tons of tarmac. It was done to make life easy for the based ATPL sausage machine schools… until they went bust and then Cranfield dropped the landing fee to £5!

Like I said above, the problem is bizjets and the ease of extracting cash from that user community. It is nothing to do with most of the points in Timothy’s list.

The interesting thing is: how or why is the bizjet business expanding? I can’t obviously see why it should be. Obviously people are getting richer all the time, but only slowly. Is there some other factor taking place e.g. Luton pushing them out?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Reduced bizjet slots and parking at Luton was one of the factors mentioned.

EGKB Biggin Hill

I can believe that, since Gatwick has gone from about £500 some years ago to something closer to £3000, and that is for a TB20. See the recent thread; I phoned them up myself for the prices. It is the result of Harrods Handling having disappeared and Signature getting a monopoly, and presumably they have a “deal going” with the airport management to facilitate the full and proper exploitation of their position

So there you go. Back to bizjets and the low hanging fruit, and orangutan airport “management”. But I can see an airport manager not wishing to put it quite like that because it makes it sound like the airport finds it easier to be a facility limited to the richest 0.01% or so of the population, which is not going to be popular with the local taxpayers.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Looks like Cranfield – https://pplir.org/event/springconf2019/

By the amount bizjet traffic they have, it seems like they have an excellent head of business development

We're glad you're here
Oxford EGTK

Here’s my list of how GA has had to FI:
- Unregulated landing fees
- Unregulated handling fees
- Practically unregulated FBO (e.g. engineering, flight school) rents
- Extra security or border fees
- Aerodrome closures and diversions
- Instrument approach unavailability
- Night unavailability
- Telephone PPR
- Booking in, booking out
- Hi-viz jackets
- Parking on grass when there’s lots of tarmac
- Out of hours surcharges or restrictions
- Sitting around for ages waiting for someone or something to happen in order to go flying again
- Staring at tumbleweed rolling across the runway and ramps while listening to fake news: “It’s too busy here”
- Face poor/unstable customer service and being talked down to
- Constantly relying on goodwill gestures of owners/operators, to be permitted to land/fly/do business.
- 20% VAT for training, and AVGAS duty

It’s a real joke how we even got here, and how many have almost lost sight of a better future ahead.

Here’s an education pack for your MP:

http://www.generalaviationappg.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/GA-Campaign-Pack-final.pdf

Last Edited by James_Chan at 20 May 09:58

Peter wrote:

(see the ritual slagging-off of any place charging more than £10, ritually posted on the UK GA chat sites)

I’m not sure that this is a major factor. EGNS/Ronaldsway charges more than £10 but it gets 5 out of 5 stars on the pilot rating page on Skydemon, as well as a list of positive reviews.

But EGNS has decent opening hours, and doesn’t require PPR, and the handling services actually do something for you other than take your money and leave you standing in the car park.

I think a lot of “slagging off” goes to airports which charge a lot but are open only bankers hours and give very poor value for money for what they charge, or who treat users like they are there to serve the system not the other way around.

Last Edited by alioth at 20 May 09:23
Andreas IOM

Peter wrote:

This was spelt out on various occassions by the well known former manager of Gloucester EGBJ. He was GA-friendly and also clever in the way he promoted his airport on the UK sites, but he made it absolutely clear that he makes way more out of bizjet activity than out of piston GA activity, and one large jet landing made more money than all piston GA activity for the whole day.

The key is to make everyone feel valued and welcome, and this guy was good at it, although I understand that under new management things have changed for the worse.

I’ve watched a similar phenomena with operators trying to run our local pub (or the pub in the last village I lived in). Rather than catering to the market they had, they catered to the market they wanted and thus those who would have spent money there felt unwelcome and stopped coming. It is all very well prioritising those customers who have some prosecco and then a three course meal with a couple of bottles of wine (the bizjets) but that only works when you actually have some of those customers. The rest of the time you still have your fixed costs (chef, ATC) and it is better to have the money from the pie-and-a-pint customer (light GA) than to not have it.

Different businesses but a similar principle. There might be some bizjet growth (or is it just them being pushed out at Luton) but there certainly isn’t enough for all those airports to make a killing out of it – they will be eating each other’s lunch. Same as a leafy bit of Oxfordshire cannot support an expensive gastro-pub in every single village.

Was there not a sense of irony and humour in the room? To be given a lecture on the realities of business by someone from Cranfield? I think I’d have struggled to suppress the giggles.

EGLM & EGTN

Graham wrote:

Was there not a sense of irony and humour in the room? To be given a lecture on the realities of business by someone from Cranfield? I think I’d have struggled to suppress the giggles.

Exactly.

EGTK Oxford

Unless the airfield really is at some sort of movement capacity limit in what they can do. The fixed costs are already there and GA often requires very little attention.

This sort of view seems to be delusions of grandeur and superiority in picking the “sort” they like.

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