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LFGA RNP19 from the North West

He could have started the descent with ATC clearance at 25NM but only down to 6200ft?.(up until the 25nm point he would have needed to be above MSA , or MORA if not on a define route which here would normally be at least 2000ft above the highest point) until within the 10Nm when he could have descended to 5300ft as marked in the TAA circle. A TAA is used around RNP IAFs. Conventional approaches will have MSAs (Minimum Sector Altitude) a circle going out to 25Nm from an airport reference point or RNP.
In this case roznet was told that the altitudes should be applied. That could arguably mean that he no longer need to request descent. However, the 3300 ft is part of the procedure and you shouldn’t fly that without being cleared for the approach or the procedure.
There may well have been different control areas involved here and if you descend to the 3300ft on outbound to the IAF you run the risk of conflict with someone actually on the procedure.
Perhaps Airborne_Again you can say what the protectected area is either side of the depicted line ie HO to GA405 to the IAF. I can’t remember whether its 1nm either side or 0.5Nm. It’s been a while since I had to look it up.

France

In IMC I’d fly published approach regardless added track miles. In VMC I’d ask for visual approach. As I can see the weather was ok, so I’d ask direct IGA19 and from there land straight in. A bit steeper approach but easily doable VMC.

LDZA LDVA, Croatia

gallois wrote:

Perhaps Airborne_Again you can say what the protectected area is either side of the depicted line ie HO to GA405 to the IAF.

In the initial approach segment, 2.5 NM on either side of the nominal track has full obstacle protection (1000 ft). Outside of that protection linearly reduces to zero at 5 NM on either side. But there must be additional protected areas around HO and GA405 to cater for the turns.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

LFGA is one of my two homebases and in this case, coming over the Vosgues still in IMC, I would fly the whole approach from HO. In VMC do whatever you want :-)

The approach is in airspace G so how to get on the approach is basically your own business.

Last Edited by mri at 27 May 11:07
mri
LFSB, Switzerland

Sure but not dying is a high priority.

And as you can see from the thread I linked, ATC changed their position once I questioned the clearance…

There is a lot of dodgy stuff here.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Thanks for all the pointers

A few answer from questions:
I was cleared for the approach and descent approved as per approach minimum altitude. Don’t recall the exact word but what threw me off and why I asked here is that I didn’t get an altitude to descent to as I usually get. Which triggered a new thought process of how should I descend then.

I think from above my mistake was likely I should have stayed at 5200 until IAF and turn outside. A mistake but we are here to learn… on the heat of the moment my erroneous thought process was that now I was on a leg with 3300’ I could descend further. I will think of it differently next time.

EGTF, United Kingdom

I don’t see any way to fly it “properly” other than to HO and then via GA405. There is no legal/safe way to do an uncharted 180 turn in IMC. Unfortunately that adds about 12 miles to the flight.

Of course in VMC it doesn’t matter much as long as (a) you avoid the hard stuff and (b) you don’t annoy the controller too much.

In the US you could request (and would probably get anyway) vectors to intercept the GA405/IGA19 leg. But my limited experience in France is that would you will generally get direct to an IAF or if you’re lucky to an IF, not vectors to intercept.

(Cannes LFMD is an exception, you pretty much always get vectored to OBOTA, an IF. But it’s an odd approach anyway).

LFMD, France

johnh wrote:

I don’t see any way to fly it “properly” other than to HO and then via GA405. There is no legal/safe way to do an uncharted 180 turn in IMC. Unfortunately that adds about 12 miles to the flight.

Turns over IAFs are almost never charted. As far as I understand, given that GA405 has a 360° TAA, you should be able to approach the fix from any direction and turn towards IGA19.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Turns over IAFs are almost never charted.

True, but you’re not normally expected to do 180 turns either. If there’s a need for more than 90 degrees, normally there would be a hold or procedure turn.

LFMD, France

you’re not normally expected to do 180 turns either. If there’s a need for more than 90 degrees, normally there would be a hold or procedure turn

In my transition to Europe for flying IFR, I had been specifically told I could do manoeuvring to reposition as long as staying on the TAA (number int he circle). As mentioned earlier, I think here I actually made a mistake assuming while on the track of a leg I could start descending lower than the number in the TAA. But then felt wrong to do the turn: how far am I protected? As mentioned, now realise I made a mistake, always learning.

Last Edited by roznet at 27 May 13:55
EGTF, United Kingdom
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