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Cancelling IFR in controlled airspace with SVFR<WX<VFR

As to SVFR, I thought it allows you to fly VFR in less than VMC conditions if all of the conditions for SVFR are met (including granting of SVFR by ATC). So less strict in CTR (if granted SVFR) than outside.

Depends what is outside. I’m thinking of G airspace laterally outside the CTR. Free sight to ground etc. A CTR requires larger margins, thus SVFR is needed to fly there.

Are you legally flying VFR in IMC with a SVFR clearance, or are ATC simply relaxing the VMC requirements for you? It doesn’t make sense to me that you are legally flying VFR in IMC. That’s what I’m wondering about

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

I can predict your answers @Peter

Then try to post more accurately. For every person posting here there are 1000 reading it.

Actually most of the time I am too busy to bother.

Charlie airspace is everywhere above FL195, you can fly there if you can afford turbine and pressurisation !

Relevance = 0. VFR is banned there anyway (in Europe).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

It isn’t legal to fly in IMC with a plain PPL anywhere

Relevance = 0 (I think Antonio has an IR and IFR aircraft, why you think he does not?)

I have cancelled IFR around the Alps to get lower down but then they might chuck other stuff at you e.g. some military exercise

Relevance = 0 (Swiss ATC blabla…heard this here zillions of times, again this is CTR not Alps)

Normally one never cancels IFR unless landing, because the moment you do so ATC is no longer responsible for keeping you out of “prohibited” areas, and it becomes really easy to screw up, especially as IFR flyers tend to do minimal enroute planning w.r.t. prohibited areas etc.

Relevance = 0 (we are talking about IFR/SVFR in CTR, please stick to the topic)

Last Edited by Ibra at 13 Mar 13:47
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

LeSving wrote:

Are you legally flying VFR in IMC with a SVFR clearance, or are ATC simply relaxing the VMC requirements for you? It doesn’t make sense to me that you are legally flying VFR in IMC. That’s what I’m wondering about

ATC is not relaxing the VMC requirements. The definition of Special VFR is “a VFR flight cleared by air traffic control to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions below VMC;”

It’s what the rules say – it doesn’t have to make sense. OTOH, it does make sense if you consider that IMC and lack of visual references are not the same thing.

It really would help if people in this discussion read up on the definitions in SERA, as well as SERA.5001 and SERA.5010. But then there may not be a discussion anymore.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 13 Mar 13:53
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

ATC is not relaxing the VMC requirements

Yes, the fact that ATC separate SVFR in zones does not relax VMC definition…otherwise, VMC can be relaxed in Bravo TMA (say down to clear of clouds with +1500m visibility) given that VFR-VFR gets ATC separation

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

VMC can be relaxed in Bravo TMA (say down to clear of clouds with +1500m visibility) given that VFR-VFR gets ATC separation

Maybe in the UK. Not in EASA-land. (But I agree that the cloud clearance requirements in class B seem to make no sense given that all traffic is separated.)

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

ATC is not relaxing the VMC requirements. The definition of Special VFR is “a VFR flight cleared by air traffic control to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions below VMC;”

Aha. That is indeed relaxing the VMC requirements (for the control zone) IMO.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

That is indeed relaxing the VMC requirements (for the control zone) IMO

In the other hand, you don’t need any controlled airspace to have controlled VFR in “reduced VMC”: you can have controlled VFR flight with 1500m visivicinity in aerdrome vicinity while in Golf (e.g. Shoreham, St-Cyr) assuming the NAA is comfortable to allow 1500m VFR flights

Having controlled SVFR in Delta/Charlie CTR is consistent with having controlled VFR in Golf zones when WX is less than 5000m, the main difference is the requirement for separation

Last Edited by Ibra at 14 Mar 08:26
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Controlled VFR in Golf? Is it not an intrinsic contradiction?

Antonio
LESB, Spain

It is odd indeed,

It’s possible to have controlled VFR in Golf when in vicinity of aerodromes with Tower ATC, all you need is 1500m visibility and clear of clouds

What is not clear is how far you are controlled? runway surface? circuit volume? 2nm ATZ? along publisher departure or reporting points?

  • Shoreham has ATC with Golf ATZ
  • Chavenay has ATC with Golf RMZ
  • St-Cyr has ATC with nothing

If you can happily fly VFR on TWR ATC clearance with 1500m in Golf ATZ, then you fly SVFR on TWR ATC clearance with 1500m in Delta CTR

In many instances, Delta CTR with TWR ATC was introduced on top of Golf ATZ with TWR ATC…the ‘SVFR trick’ seems to keep backward compatibility for VFR to grandfather their operation with 1500m as they did before historically, private and commercial helicopters loved SVFR clearances: they can operate as low as 800m while avoiding the costly IFR certification for fleet and crew !

Last Edited by Ibra at 14 Mar 11:48
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
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