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Change to TMZ in Germany w/e 23.03.2023

europaxs wrote:

Since when does FIS “control” a class D not CTR? Radar does in my opinion.

Check your charts. You’ll see the frequencies of those managing the Class Delta (non CTR) airspaces are typically FIS, not Radar….

EDL*, Germany

A clearance to enter/cross airspace Delta can’t be issued by FIS but only relayed from Radar as I see it. However FIS would often coordinate with Radar as a service without the need to change frequency to Radar.

EDLE

Steve6443 wrote:

Münster

In fact the Münster scenario looks horrible. Looks like a neat destination for where to send a highly aspirated microlight student pilot…will have to let my parents know

But either the airspace gets restructured in near future or there will be issued some procedure how to “obey” to the new rules…at the moment it’s like a clear example of how to keep away unwanted traffic.

Last Edited by UdoR at 24 Jan 21:22
Germany

UdoR wrote:

In fact the Münster scenario looks horrible. Looks like a neat destination for where to send a highly aspirated microlight student pilot…will have to let my parents know

But either the airspace gets restructured in near future or there will be issued some procedure how to “obey” to the new rules…at the moment it’s like a clear example of how to keep away unwanted traffic.

Check Dortmund. There, you have the TMZ expanding to the north and south. More changes of frequencies and squawks….. But I agree, I believe – or at least I hope – they will change their rules. Preferable would be switching to Radar to request the clearance….

europaxs wrote:

A clearance to enter/cross airspace Delta can’t be issued by FIS but only relayed from Radar as I see it. However FIS would often coordinate with Radar as a service without the need to change frequency to Radar.

To enter that airspace you ask for clearance via the frequency listed – in this case, Langen. Whether I’m heading North or South, I will typically cross either Dortmund or Münster and I can’t recall times when I’ve asked for a transit through the Class D (non CTR) and not received an immediate clearance, meaning they didn’t appear to need to co-ordinate.

Regardless, you’ll surely agree it makes zero sense for a VFR pilot to be talking to FIS, needing to leave the frequency to monitor another frequency, to rejoin the FIS whilst transiting the Class Delta (non CTR) only to leave the frequency to monitor the TMZ frequency again and rejoin Langen later.

I would have preferred that Langen hand over the management of the Class D (non CTR) to Radar; that way if you were flying in the TMZ and wanting to cross the Class D (non CTR) you would call up Radar to ask. This whole new system is a disaster waiting to happen – I can envisage some pilots heading across the Class D (non CTR) thinking they can do so because they are monitoring TMZ…..

Last Edited by Steve6443 at 24 Jan 22:14
EDL*, Germany

Steve6443 wrote:

Regardless, you’ll surely agree it makes zero sense for a VFR pilot to be talking to FIS, needing to leave the frequency to monitor another frequency, to rejoin the FIS whilst transiting the Class Delta (non CTR) only to leave the frequency to monitor the TMZ frequency again and rejoin Langen later.

You don’t need to make it that complicated. What I usually do is to let FIS know that I need to change the transponder code but will stay on their frequency while additionally monitoring the RADAR frequency. The last bit is important because without they will explain that you also need to monitor the RADAR frequency. When leaving the TMZ I ask them if I may squawk the previous code and that’s it. Not sure if this is technically checking out and back in but it doesn’t block the FIS frequency forever.

EDQH, Germany

Guys you need two transponders

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Clipperstorch wrote:

You don’t need to make it that complicated. What I usually do is to let FIS know that I need to change the transponder code but will stay on their frequency while additionally monitoring the RADAR frequency. The last bit is important because without they will explain that you also need to monitor the RADAR frequency. When leaving the TMZ I ask them if I may squawk the previous code and that’s it. Not sure if this is technically checking out and back in but it doesn’t block the FIS frequency forever.

Don’t you see that, instead of remaining on a frequency whilst transiting both class D (non CTR) and the TMZ, you are having to make multiple additional radio calls which, strictly speaking, are superfluous? In the past, you would simply remain on FIS frequency and keep their squawk. If Radar wanted to get hold of you, they could see by your squawk which frequency you are working.

On a day where plenty of aircraft are flying, the number of aircraft transmitting these messages, as you have indicated, whilst transiting this airspace *will" effectively reduce the radio bandwidth available as aircraft state their intentions. Makes zero sense to me, especially as previously the TMZ of the local airspaces around me was handled using option 2) as posted in an earlier post.

EDL*, Germany

@Steve6443 I agree it’s kind of a mess. I guess, they’ll come up with a solution as soon as they become aware of that problem.

EDLE

Steve6443 wrote:

I will typically cross either Dortmund or Münster and I can’t recall times when I’ve asked for a transit through the Class D (non CTR) and not received an immediate clearance, meaning they didn’t appear to need to co-ordinate.

In class D, VFR traffic is not separated from anything. It’s quite possible that approach control has authorised FIS to give VFR traffic a clearance unless they say otherwise.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

europaxs wrote:

I agree it’s kind of a mess. I guess, they’ll come up with a solution as soon as they become aware of that problem.

I can imagine that they will become painfully aware on the first reasonable flying day after 23.03.2023 – I’m wondering how many pilots around EDDG, EDLW, EDLP etc will actually be aware that they have to switch squawk and monitor radar when in the past they would remain on FIS frequency and how they will react to FIS telling them:

FIS: D-ABCD on your current heading, you will be entering TMZ Münster in 2 minutes, cleared to monitor Radar on 129.300, squawk 6104

D-ABCD: D-ABCD say again?

FIS: Your course will take you into the Münster TMZ, cleared to monitor Radar, 129.300, squawk 6104.

D-ABCD: Can’t I remain on your frequency like I used to?

FIS: No. frequency is 129.300, squawk 6104.

D-ABCD: Am I cleared through the Class D (non CTR)?

FIS: Clearance through the Delta Non CTR from November to Sierra at 3500 feet is approved, monitor 129.300, squawk 6104.

D-ABCD: Clearance through Delta non CTR at 3500 from November to Sierra is approved, monitor 129.300, say again squawk…..

Ok, a bit exaggerated but you can see the issue…. pilots have been used to transiting TMZ for years whilst working the FIS frequency and will likely be confused about why they suddenly need to switch frequency & squawk.

Now imagine this happening with an extremely busy flying day and you can imagine the chaos happening.

EDL*, Germany
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