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IFR pickups from non-IFR airports in Paris area - plan extra fuel!

I departed from Chartres LFOR (which is below Paris TMA) yesterday, a VFR-only uncontrolled (A/A radio only, nothing on ground, no AFIS, nothing). My I (yes, I, not Z) flightplan, with an excellent routing TSU UM163 MMD at FL240 was perfectly accepted, and I even got a slot (CTOT) for it. Then after takeoff, it was all “no, you are below LFPG arrivals, cannot climb you, cannot send you in the requested direction”. They vectored me about in (nearly) opposite direction of my filed route (150° away) and (nearly) opposite direction of my destination (140° away) for about 17min/30nmi to climb me away from Paris TMA, before turning me back… to abeam my takeoff airport (!!!), not even a tiny shortcut back to some point along my route. This all leading to a total extra flightime of about 30min and extra route of 50nmi.

If I had had (only) the quantity of fuel prescribed by the legislation, I would have not arrived at destination. The other extremely frustrating thing is that obviously, this sent me to the “congestion point” which was the reason for my slot about 30 min later than planned by the system… I would have been at the planned time over the congestion point if I had departed 30 min earlier, technically in breach of my CTOT.

So, in essence:

  1. To all, beware and plan for sufficient extra fuel (or a “fuel diversion” enroute) in similar scenarios.
  2. Does anybody know how typical this is of Paris area? Should I expect such shenanigans each time?
ELLX

If it helps for departures under Paris TMA from VFR or IFR airfields without ATC or AFIS, I usually call Orly or CDG about 10min before EOBT or CTOT for “startup” or “mise en route", the 07-25 axis overhead TSU is the line that splits CDG (+33148629590) and Orly (+33149757076)

Last Edited by Ibra at 28 Jun 20:09
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Does anybody know how typical this is of Paris area? Should I expect such shenanigans each time?

On climb, the majority of Orly arrivals happen along ODILO to TSU axis between 5kft-9kft not sure if one can climb there to FL240? also Seine SIV are understaffed to manage Echo portions of TMA

On route, it happens to get tactically re-retouted all the way irrespective of the filed route (Pontoise to Nevers in arc rather than straighf line) but never had a backward flight? Seine SIV are understaffed to manage Echo, not sure if they would have helped?

There are other things to keep in mind, Z-FPL in Paris TMA gets tossed by ATC (you filed I-FPL), I know someone with EIR who had a tough time…on I-FPL one has to avoid filing DCT as max DCT = 0 outside SID apply to ADP airports, they also do apply similar rule for VFR airports:

- StCyr or Lognes you laterally join CTR then IFR along SID from LeBourget or Melun

- Dreux, Mureaux you climb into TMA at 3kft-5kft then get vectored left/right until MTD

I never flew IFR out of Chartres, so can’t say how it works, although, I now rarely depart uncontrolled IFR with intention to climb into busy TMA in London or Paris without having my transponder code plus initial route by phone, it saves from surprises, especially as some valid routings gets tossed out by ATC on first contact (even worse, I filed once with wrong aircraft registration and end up flying 70% of my route IMC OCAS as ATC refused my climb)

Last Edited by Ibra at 28 Jun 20:35
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

@Guillaume should be able to help you.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Can you post your ads-b track ?
Who did you call after departing Chartres ?
What you had is some kind of worst case scenario.
Transitoning via Pontoise or Melun TMA would have probably eased the process. Or at least being in Seine FIS sector.

LFOU, France

Much seems to depend on the runways in use on the particular day.
Even on a POGO from Pointoise to Toussus you can find you are being vectored back and fore.
Sometimes its good. For instance being vectored over the Palace of Versaille, over some other tourist attractions and then passing above the threshold at Orly before being vectored onto the final at Toussus, I always enjoyed.
In answer to the OPs question is yes you will often get some strange routings in the Paris TMA until you are actually integrated into the system (so to speak).
Ibra’s suggestions of telephoning in advance are good, sometimes there are heavy traffic times and you might well have found that a take off 30 mins later would have got you a more direct routing. But Paris control has changed a lot over the last few years and is in the process of further change now. PBN and free airspace is causing a rethink in many areas, but I’m not sure that some areas have yet managed to work out how to take advantage of the new technology.

France

Ibra wrote:

If it helps for departures under Paris TMA from VFR or IFR airfields without ATC or AFIS, I usually call Orly or CDG about 10min before EOBT or CTOT for “startup” or “mise en route", the 07-25 axis overhead TSU is the line that splits CDG (+33148629590) and Orly (+33149757076)

Great, thanks! That’s exactly the kind of information I should have had. I asked the local pilots specifically if there was a phone number that I could call to get a clearance on the ground, they told me “nothing you can do from the ground, call Paris Info in the air”. I shortcut Info, and directly called the Seine IFR frequency.

Last Edited by lionel at 29 Jun 08:27
ELLX

I may call FIS/SIV in Golf when airborne at cruise altitude (8kft-10kft) looking to join laterally, for departure with intention to join by climb, I tend to phone nearby ATC to arrange it beforehand, they usually they cast one into the nearby departures. As vague guess, from Chartres going north-east, I would phone Orly if they would allow join at POY, HOL or RBT at 3kft then followed by NUMRO departures 9A, 9B, 9P, 9V from Toussus or Villacoublay? depending on winds and runways in use in PO/PG airports, that departure tend to cross ODILO arrival at 10kft

Also curious to know how M163/UM163 route works? bizarrely, it does go along 07-25 TSU axis, so not sure who owns it between Rennes, Paris, Brussels? it validates on your FPL but vaguely looks like well-guarded route for some twin jets, I recall pistons and turboprops being re-routed out of Paris TMA when asking for crossing in Delta +FL115 or Charlie +195, there is even a NOTAM, I recall they were even doing it VFR to skip +2T en-route charge (none of that is applicable to your case with I-FPL with CTOT)

Maybe call them to know more? or MOR what happened

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Chartres LFOR sits right under LF-R205/X.
Requested information is in AIP.

Guillaume wrote:

Requested information is in AIP.

Where in the AIP can I find the phone number to call from the ground for an IFR departure clearance (which is the requested information)? Thanks in advance.

Ibra wrote:

Also curious to know how M163/UM163 route works?

UM163 works very well for me, FL200 or above. IFR obviously. I routinely use it when I have to cross the Paris area west to east, and I get that routing. Going to ELLX, it is very low routing overhead, nearly a straight line. Technically, they put me direct to the VORs (skipping the intermediate points) but since these segments are aligned, that is the same ground track anyway.

Similarly, UN857 GIMER UT300 works nicely (again, FL200 or above) east to west, and I usually get shortcuts on that one.

M163 starts only at CTL so is not that relevant.

Ibra wrote:

for departure with intention to join by climb, I tend to phone nearby ATC to arrange it beforehand

How do you find the phone number of “nearby ATC”? I hoped to call Seine APP or Paris RADAR on the phone, but could not find their number in the AIP.

ELLX
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