NCYankee wrote:
Also, at a towered airport, ATC must authorize the CTL, whereas at a non towered airport, it is pilot discretion.
I guess when ATC authorize CTL you are floored to to CTL MDA, you can’t just go to ILS MDA and go missed or recover to circling height
When it’s un-towred you have the right to change you mind about straight-in & circling as long as you land or missed
gallois wrote:
However, I have seen military officer and VIP carrying aircraft flying down the runway following an ILS approach to minima 200ft AAL and then pulling up to circle to land altitude for the circuit and landing
With ATC IAP+CTL clearance, for sure CTL MDA applies in protected circling area outside runway axis but on approach path, there are two runways and people can go to land via both ends, except when it’s windy? I could always argue that the “pull up” from IAP MDA before MAPt to CTL MDA is legal as far as IFR procedures design and obstacle margins are concerned but AD ATC may not approve it 
Of course without ATS in France, I agree circling floor OR circuit floor applies to IAP+CTL if landing
if not landing, can one train on ILS Cat1 down to 200ft and go-missed without ATC/AFIS?
Looking at some IAP plates, you will be going missed on ILS from 600ft-800ft agl MDH in low ceilings days and up to 1200ft agl on good days (I doubt going missed on ILS from MSA is of any use for hand flying practice, one would get a better sensitivity doing GPS LNAV/VNAV toward to some way-point and changing CDI to 0.3nm and bang all day along)
Airborne_Again wrote:
PANS-OPS doesn’t specify a particular place for circling
Thanks for the reference, yes there is not much consensus by commercial operators neither (not unexpected when it comes to freestyle flying, already PANSOPS/TERPS disagree on design specs, let alone how circling is flown by operators) with lot of confusion on guidance tools…
Ibra wrote:
For the last point, I looked online, it seems even heavy metal don’t have a single criteria for descent to touchdown from MDA(H)
Because it is solely the pilots responsibility i.e. the authority (i.e. designer) has washed their hands and at that point you are now on your own, for both PAN-OPS and TERPS.
Things to consider if you leave the circling area below MDA or more strictly speaking before being established on the missed approach track below the MDA you may not be protected. What happens when an engine fails etc, indeed there are many things that could happen that are not fully considered and left to the judgment of the pilot. For example how will you remain in the protected area without visual reference until you have climbed back on the missed approach track?
Ted wrote:
Things to consider if you leave the circling area below MDA or more strictly speaking before being establish on the missed approach track below the MDA you may not be protected.
I think I asked that one as well while ago, I think also Airborne_Again point it out a similar answer, in any case, once you are bellow (circling) MDA you are no longer in IAP designers hands when it comes to executing a missed approach MAP, these go as far as pilot judgment on going missed after a hard landing !
However, there is plenty of room and a very clear way out when you are along runway axis near (straigh-in) MDA at MAPT, it’s just too windy behind to land…
Ted wrote:
What happens when an engine fails etc
In single, the answer is easy wing level & pitch for sensible speed you can make bonus points regarding your crash location
In low powered twins…
“if not landing, can one train on ILS Cat1 down to 200ft and go-missed without ATC/AFIS?”
The answer to that is yes you agree that is whaThis usut you are going to do with ATS. You either tell them that you are going to fly the missed beforehand when they might ask if you intend to fly the approach a second time, or you just fly the MAP and talk to them afterwards.
You might also want to fly the approach to minima and then go on to another airfield and ATS will often facilitate this and get you a clearance without the need to fly the whole MAP.
But you will usually fly along the runway at minima before pulling up as and heading for your next waypoint.and altitude.
gallois wrote:
The answer to that is yes
So in France, MVL/VFR circle & circuit integration and (circling or circuit) MDA are not applicable to the case when you fly an IAP without ATS if you are not landing ?
You just fly (straight-in) MDA to MAPt and go for a missed or for a departure (if cleared to this before hand)
PS: I have always done it this way without ATS, just confirming
Yes as long as you are not landing and follow the MAP. The moral question then is would you have landed if visibility allowed? Or were you carrying out a practice procedure?
The first would be an infraction.
Much simpler to tell ATS you are going to fly the missed.
Of course if you wanted a clearance for the approach to minima up the runway and on to another waypoint without flying the MAP, IMO it is better to agree with ATS before the descent as I find it difficult to copy a clearance in the climb portion of the MAP a bit too much work.
Yes an IFR low pass and departure needs to be agreed with APP before IAF (they may ask for I-FPL if it’s SID or IMC), the missed is still a default choice and you can always revert to it: I had a case in UK, where my departure was agreed with ATC by phone/radio then my RHS still asked to go missed at MDA (“runway NOT visible” at MDA, so you keep the hood ON)
gallois wrote:
The moral question then is would you have landed if visibility allowed?
Usually only +10kts tailwind will prevent a straight-in landing, it’s way powerful than any legal or moral question
For circling, it comes with risks as visibility and lights are expected to be excellent outside clouds along runway axis, in some places visual references and lights will disappear once you go to one side in IMC or Night
Ibra wrote:
I guess when ATC authorize CTL you are floored to to CTL MDA, you can’t just go to ILS MDA and go missed or recover to circling height
When it’s un-towered you have the right to change you mind about straight-in & circling as long as you land or missed
In the US, unless restricted by the circle clearance at a towered airport, one can circle in any direction and cross any runway in the circle maneuver. However, at a towered airport, one will frequently be given a circle left/right to a specific runway. At a non towered airport, one must circle in the same direction as the VFR pattern, unless the circle is restricted to the opposite side as part of the charted procedure. Regardless of towered or non-towered, if you descend below the CTL MDA, you are not authorized to climb back up and then circle. You are in violation of 91.175 if you do so.
gallois wrote:
Yes as long as you are not landing and follow the MAP. The moral question then is would you have landed if visibility allowed? Or were you carrying out a practice procedure?
The first would be an infraction.
Much simpler to tell ATS you are going to fly the missed.
Of course if you wanted a clearance for the approach to minima up the runway and on to another waypoint without flying the MAP, IMO it is better to agree with ATS before the descent as I find it difficult to copy a clearance in the climb portion of the MAP a bit too much work.
that’s actually not my understanding. Without ATC you are cleared to the VPT height to circle and do a visual circling of the terrain. you can never do a straight in. If you need to remain visual by descending below the circling height, I think that is OK as long as it is not below 500ft (as you’re not landing but you are circling to take in visual reference)
As I said, it’s my understanding and what I have been TOLD to do during my ME IR training
gallois wrote:
Of course if you wanted a clearance for the approach to minima up the runway and on to another waypoint without flying the MAP, IMO it is better to agree with ATS before the descent as I find it difficult to copy a clearance in the climb portion of the MAP a bit too much work.
Fortunately in the US, a clearance for the approach is also a clearance to fly the charted missed approach procedure. ATC will advise the pilot if a non standard missed approach procedure is to be used if needed before the approach clearance is issued. The exception is that if one is flying a practice approach at a towered airport, the approach clearance does not authorize the automatic use of missed approach procedure.
